whose 16V battery and charger do you recommend?

[Jimmy Burns]

I don't know if anybody has had much time to evaluate the new 16V batteries, chargers and alternators on the market from Powermaster and TheV Battery Company. I'm looking to upgrade from my 12V system and would appreciate any feedback that anyone has to offer.

Thanks for your time, Jimmy

[Sparky]

Jimmy,
I have installed quite a few of the New PowerMaster Batteries without any issues.
The Batteries are ready to rock right out of the box and seem to be working really well thus far.
I have also sold the Battery Chargers and they are really cool, they will charge both 12 and 16 Volt Batteries with three different amperage settings.
You can also use an old Turbo Start Battery Charger with these Batteries, as long as it is set up for charging AGM style Batteries.
I have sold and installed many PowerMaster 16 Volt Alternators without issues as well.

The V Battery has an optional 12 Volt post, that and the cost (V Batteries are pricey), seems to be the only difference between the two Batteries.
The V Battery would like you to use their Charger with their Battery, but you can use an old Turbo Start Battery Charger, but V Battery will void the warranty.

I can supply you with PowerMaster Products if you’re interested.
I hope this helps,
Sparky

[FLYIN4D]

Sparky,

I'm gonna be in the market for a new charging setup. So, these Powermaster 16V batteries come with a 12v post, does that mean I can use a decent 12v alternator as well. If so, what size (amp) alt would you recommend and how much at idle?

[Sparky]

Maybe I didn't clarify,
The PowerMaster Battery is a 16 Volt Battery only.

The V Battery (Different Battery-Different Company and Pricy) Comes with both 12 and 16 Volt Post.

The 12 Volt Post is for running sensitve electronics that cannot handle 16 Volts.
If you run one of these Batteries you must still run a 16 Volt Alternator and charge the 16 Volt side of the Battery.
Charging the 12 Volt side of the Battery will cause problems and will not charge the 16 volt side.

Look at the 12 Volt post as a Output only, not as a Input.

I hope this helps
Sparky

[RRRAAAYYY2]

When you use a battery for both 12 volts and 16volts, you unbalance the cells. This is highly not recommended.
I am not a big fan of 16volt systems, as it is a bastard voltage. Some things advertised as 16volt capable, actually are 12volt pieces just surviving at 16 volts.
If you are running an alternator, there is no benefit of the 16volt system, unless you are in stereo competitions. Your ignition won't see any benefits above 15volts.

Also if you want here is our way of figuring out what size alternator to use.
http://www.svapowerproducts.com/html/how_big_of_an_alternator_do_i_.html

[Sparky]

I usually recommend:
If you run 2 16 Volt Batteries then you don't need to run an Alternator.
But if you choose to run one 16 Volt Battery then you should run an Alternator.

Sparky

[FLYIN4D]

Thanks alot for the info guys. Sparky, PM me with a price for two Powermaster 16v batteries and charger. I've dealt with J. Brady usually when buying those Powermaster products, can you meet his prices?

[Jimmy Burns]

Sparky and Ray thanks for the responses, Maybe I should look into this further and maybe you two can help me to decide which way to go. Currently my car has 2 red top Optimas and a 100 amp alternator, which is inadequate at best! What I'm trying to do is avoid having to have a generator and battery charger out at the track with me, this car is also driven on the street from time to time. I know voltage drops ca play hell with fuel injection systems and that's whyI'm here. I'm shooting for 1500 hp and what I'll be running is a BS3 fuel management system with 2 2025A Weldon pumps, here's a chart with their amperage draw http://www.weldonracing.com/d2025a_chart.html (I don't where I'll be on this chart seeing as I'll be running around 80 psi and around 125 gph (if I'm doing the calculations right!), a Spal fan that pulls around 22 amps, a Moroso electric water pump that pulls approximately 7 amps, 2 bilge pumps that pull 6.4 amps combined, an MSD 7531, a Hipster brake and headlights, taillights and all of that crap.

So what do you two think?

Thanks, Jimmy

[RRRAAAYYY2]

Unless you have NOS, you probably will be fine with an alternator that is putting out 150amps at idle (120amps of draw + 20% for longevity, thats with me guessing the brake is only 20amps). So we will need to know what your idle is, and your maximum rpm. I always say if you are covered at idle, you are covered every where else. (Only depending on how many NOS solenoids you add, if applicable.)
With the right alternator you can drop the second battery. I have to note that I personally absolutely hate Optimas, would much prefer to see you with a Deka Intimidator (best value for price, Cadillac) or Hawker Genesis Odysess (best quality but for a price, Rolls Royce). Since Optima went cheap three years ago, my warranty rates went through the roof on them. But if you have had them for longer than 3 years, they are probably still the better quality ones.

Deka's standard wet cell 734/78 has out lasted Optima's up here. It has its plates set in epoxy on the bottom, and has stronger interplate connectors. 2 Deka's wetcells out performed 3 red tops in my bike as well.

[Chris Uratchko]

I'd like to share my experiences data logging with a 16 volt, with no alternator. If no nos, there is no need for an alternator, just charge between rounds.

At the time, my car had EFI, big EFI pump, water pump, and ignition... and fan on the return road.

From the time I started the car in the pits, drove up to the staging lanes, made the run, return road, weighed the car, and drove back to the pits and shut the car off. I would lose .4-.5 volts.... that's firing 8 injectors, efi module, ignition, pump, water pump, fan on the return road...

This was with the old 16 volt wet cell, that thing was a great battery. I haven't data logged voltage drop yet with the dry cell.

[FLYIN4D]

Chris,

Looks as though I'm gonna go the 16v route again. I had alot more going on with my Dart in terms of "stuff" I was running with the two 16v AGM Turbo Start battery setup. That car had a t-brake, various gauges, electric h20 pump/fan, Racepack, two MagnaFlow Pro Star 500 pumps, Digital-7, two foggers/10-'noids total (never turned them on). My track time scenario was similar to yours. I could make 2-3 passes and it needed to be charged.

This Stang will not have all that, just a few gauges, electric h20 pump/fan, Digital-7 and single fogger with 6-noids total. So, will one 16v battery and 16v alternator be a better choice for my current combo or should I just run two 16v batteries again? Sparky?

[Sparky]

If weight is a concern, then I would run one 16 volt Battery and a minimum of a 100 amp Alternator. If weight isn't a concern, then leave the Alternator out of the mix and install another Battery.
PowerMaster can build up to a 300 AMP Alternator if needed, but it isn't recommended in a Racecar application, usually these Alternators are designed for high amperage audio applications.

On John Cunningham’s Wagon, I installed one 16 Volt Battery and PowerMaster upgraded the Alternator to 100-110 Amps. This should work sufficient for Drag Week and would work well in FLYIN4D's application.

PowerMaster has a great Technical Support Group that does a great job in assisting customers. It may not be a bad idea to talk to either John Brady Or Eric Edelmann, on a recommendation for an Alternator and what amperage you should run.
PowerMaster can be reached at (865) 688-5953.

I hope this helps
Sparky

[FLYIN4D]

Thanks Sparky!

Weight is not an issue here, but I really want to run an alternator. So, get a 100+amp 16v alt to run with one 16v dry cell battery and I should be good to go? I have a nice 12v alt, what does it take to convert to 16v?

Wes

[Sparky]

If it's a PowerMaster Alternator, you can send it back to PowerMaster and they will convert it for you. If it isn't a PowerMaster, then you may want ot call them and see what they recommend.

Sparky

[RRRAAAYYY2]

If it is not a PowerMaster, there is an external regulator available that is adjustable from 15-20 volts. So all you need to do is convert your old alternator to external regulation, easy to do, and you are good to go. But if it is a PowerMaster unit, getting them to change regulators would be a better option.

[FLYIN4D]

Questions answered, feel more education on the subject! Thanks a bunch guys!

[Jimmy Burns]

Unless you have NOS, you probably will be fine with an alternator that is putting out 150amps at idle (120amps of draw + 20% for longevity, thats with me guessing the brake is only 20amps). So we will need to know what your idle is, and your maximum rpm. I always say if you are covered at idle, you are covered every where else. (Only depending on how many NOS solenoids you add, if applicable.)
With the right alternator you can drop the second battery. I have to note that I personally absolutely hate Optimas, would much prefer to see you with a Deka Intimidator (best value for price, Cadillac) or Hawker Genesis Odysess (best quality but for a price, Rolls Royce). Since Optima went cheap three years ago, my warranty rates went through the roof on them. But if you have had them for longer than 3 years, they are probably still the better quality ones.

Deka's standard wet cell 734/78 has out lasted Optima's up here. It has its plates set in epoxy on the bottom, and has stronger interplate connectors. 2 Deka's wetcells out performed 3 red tops in my bike as well.

Ray, the transbrake solenoid only draws 8 amps. The engines idle speed will be around 1200 rpm and will turn 8000 rpm at the maximum.

What do you think at this point, Ray?


Sparky, do you see any reason to go to 16 Volt with this set up? Or will 12 Volt suffice with the 2 batteries and a hi amp alternator?

Thanks guys!

[Sparky]

Jimmy,
Some food for thought: I have never taken 12 volts out of a racecar and installed 16 Volts and had it slow down. The cars have always picked up on 16 Volts.
Reviewing your original post, electrically you have a lot going on, especially with the 2 Weldon Fuel Pumps, the BS3 and the Ignition, any deviation in Battery voltage here and the Tune Up will be drastically affected.

In working with the Hardcore Motorsports team, Dave Henneniger is very adamant about having an Alternator on the car and running about 18 volts. During dyno sessions, when the voltage fell under this threshold, the tune up was affected.

The Problem you run into with the 12 Volt systems is you run the risk of voltage getting into the High 10 Volt to mid 11 Volt area, once the EFI falls into these voltage levels, the tune up is very unpredictable. I converted John Cunningham’s 66 Nova Wagon to 16 Volts for this reason. John Meany strongly felt if the car was run on a 16 volt system it would make a lot more power. Basically the two fuel pumps on the car did not supply enough fuel when run on 12 Volts. It would work fine for the street, but in race conditions it was insufficient. The car also had an Alternator on it.

I hope these couple of examples help clear things up for you,
Sparky

[RRRAAAYYY2]

I agree that a car running actually running on 12volts is in trouble. We have seen lots of guys gain ET going from a 12volt battery to a 15volt system (alternator and battery). This is only true if the alternator is producing enough charge to keep 14+volts in the system at all times. If it is dropping, then it needs to be bigger. If there is no alternator, then a 16volt system is way better than a 12volt battery system.

I have not seen a drag car that would benefit from going from 14.5-15volts to 16+volts. The key being you have the 14+volts. You need to be doing 10,000rpm before 16volts becomes an advantage over 15volts.

As for your alternator you need a minimum of around 110amps at idle in order for the voltage to stay at its peak. However prolonged periods of time spent idling will cause premature failure in your alternator if you are running it at 100% of its capacity. So we recommend (borrowed from OE applications) a 20% cushion. This keeps the alternator well into is charge curve, room to grow, or room to lose a bit of output if it gets really hot. This puts your alternator into the 135 amp range at idle. What it does after that doesn't really matter, as you have very little in extra load off idle. Actually probably would be the same draw as the MSD draw increases, but the transbrake is gone.

There are lots of alternators that are capable of this. At 1200rpm idle, a 2 1/2 to 1 pulley ratio puts your alternators rotor idle speed at 3000rpm and its maximum at 20,000rpm. Very doable. Could manage to get down to a 2 to 1 pulley ratio, but that would require a big body alternator, which is going to hit you with an extra 5 pounds.

You also will need to be running a serpentine or clog belt system. A "V" belt just won't work. If you can design into the system an automatic tensioner, it would be a real plus as well.

If mounting allows, I would look at the Delco late model CS130D style alternators. There is one mount similar to the older Delco 10si, except the mounting ears are a little further apart. Almost the exact dimensions of older Fords. They can be made to produce enough power to keep your voltage up at all times. They can be made to be one wires, and their voltage set point is around 15volts. They have a very good bearing to rotor ratio, so the rpm won't hurt them. They also have avalanche diodes, which helps provide a little more protection for your MSD. Besides the mount mentioned, there are a few other choices, but they pretty much need a motor plate or lots of bracket fabricating.

The older CS130 style alternators will work as well. With them there is an exact drop in for the older 10si models. They are a little less money. But they have two major disadvantages compared to the CS130D alternators. The rotor to bearing ratio is not as good, we recommend having the bearings checked after each season with these. And there is a little less output at idle as compared to the CS130D units.

One of the biggest advantages of staying with a 12volt based system is what happens if something breaks. If you lose your battery, the one out of your truck will work. Lose the alternator, there is a good chance someone will have a spare for you to borrow.

Plus all your components are meant to work properly on 12volts. Some of my customers have learned the hard way that not all 16volt compatable pieces are ready for 18volts all the time. They can handle for short periods, but running up and down the street they over heat, which causes premature failure.

[Jimmy Burns]

Ray and Sparky, Thanks for the replies you both make some very strong points. Right now I'm still undecided on which way to go. At this point I am leaning towards going with the 16 volt system, at least for the issues that can come up from a drop in voltage with the fuel injection (I don't want any problems while running 30 pounds of boost!). When I decide and whatever I decide I will contact one of you for some prices, so at least you get something out addressing these posts.

Thanks again, Jimmy

[RRRAAAYYY2]

Maybe I should clarify what I said, with the proper alternator, i.e. if your alternator has enough output, you will not get any voltage drop, ever. (Unless the alternator calfs).
As for contacting us for prices, this is Sparky's house, so just call him. (I am trying to talk him into distributing my stuff anyway, :) )

[HighrevtwinV6]

Jimmy,
I have installed quite a few of the New PowerMaster Batteries without any issues.
The Batteries are ready to rock right out of the box and seem to be working really well thus far.
I have also sold the Battery Chargers and they are really cool, they will charge both 12 and 16 Volt Batteries with three different amperage settings.
You can also use an old Turbo Start Battery Charger with these Batteries, as long as it is set up for charging AGM style Batteries.
I have sold and installed many PowerMaster 16 Volt Alternators without issues as well.

The V Battery has an optional 12 Volt post, that and the cost (V Batteries are pricey), seems to be the only difference between the two Batteries.
The V Battery would like you to use their Charger with their Battery, but you can use an old Turbo Start Battery Charger, but V Battery will void the warranty.

I can supply you with PowerMaster Products if you’re interested.
I hope this helps,
Sparky


I heard you could use the acid type turbo start battery charger on the new powermaster agm 16 volt batteries with a minor modification to the charger, is this true? and if so can that information be given out or can you guys change it for a few?

Thanks
Jake

[RRRAAAYYY2]

I have no idea what so ever. AGM battery manufacturers usually give a specific amp/voltage charge rate they want the battery to see (and it changes with percentage of charge). Smart chargers are the best, as they compensate for a series of different parameters.

Do you have any of the specs form the charger and battery? Sparky might not need the info, but I will before I can say anything. Then when all is said and done, you will charge between rounds which does not allow for enough time to properly charge the battery anyway. :) You guys are being extremely abusive on your battteries, whether you mean too or not. It is something you cannot prevent.

[dsmith]

hey jimmy wasssup.....im not sure about the fuel inj but with nitrous on huber's and bischoffs car the 16 volt systems perform alot better you dont have to worry about the car not starting when you get into later rounds and you have less time to charge the batteries

[DOTracer]

I'd like to share my experiences data logging with a 16 volt, with no alternator. If no nos, there is no need for an alternator, just charge between rounds.

At the time, my car had EFI, big EFI pump, water pump, and ignition... and fan on the return road.

From the time I started the car in the pits, drove up to the staging lanes, made the run, return road, weighed the car, and drove back to the pits and shut the car off. I would lose .4-.5 volts.... that's firing 8 injectors, efi module, ignition, pump, water pump, fan on the return road...

This was with the old 16 volt wet cell, that thing was a great battery. I haven't data logged voltage drop yet with the dry cell.

Chris are you still using 16 volts and no alternator?

[noslix]

Don't know if it interests anyone, but I've figured out the parts needed to change Ford 3G and 4G alternators over to 16v charging. Took a ton of research, but everything is off the shelf.

[Brandon Alsept]

So I read threw this and have a good idea on what all I need. The one question I have however is what will I need to do to run a 16V system on a stock EFI car (EEC IV) 1998 Mustang GT?

[Brandon Alsept]

Don't know if it interests anyone, but I've figured out the parts needed to change Ford 3G and 4G alternators over to 16v charging. Took a ton of research, but everything is off the shelf.

I would like to have that info, since I am looking to convert to a 16V on my DOHC engine. Thanks

[prost632]

turbo start sells a new circuit board that goes in the chargers to charge the new agm batteries,can change it in 5 mins.

[RRRAAAYYY2]

Don't know if it interests anyone, but I've figured out the parts needed to change Ford 3G and 4G alternators over to 16v charging. Took a ton of research, but everything is off the shelf.
Are you just adding a resistor in the "A" of the regulator. Remember for 16volt batteries you want about an 18volt charge rate.

[RRRAAAYYY2]

So I read threw this and have a good idea on what all I need. The one question I have however is what will I need to do to run a 16V system on a stock EFI car (EEC IV) 1998 Mustang GT?
I dont why you would bother. Alternators at 200amps are easy, the only high performance heavy duty starter ever designed from scatch bolts right in your application. You are the last person in the world that needs 16volt.

[Brandon Alsept]

I dont why you would bother. Alternators at 200amps are easy, the only high performance heavy duty starter ever designed from scatch bolts right in your application. You are the last person in the world that needs 16volt.

Not sure I am following you here. I am wanting it so I can run my water pump and fan in the staging lane to keep the car cool. I have no problem with the car starting right now so not sure were the starter comment came from. I would just like to know I had plenty of voltage to all my electronic and not have that voltage drop off and possibally cost me some performance.

[RRRAAAYYY2]

Sorry for not being clearer. I was getting at you have either a 3g or 4g alternator in your car. Not the worlds best alternator from the factory. But in hopped up form it is a killer alternator. So 180-200amps with huge idle performance is available. In fact 250amps with stock output at idle is possible. So if you leave your system 12volts you should not have any issues with the voltage dropping off, as long as you upgrade your alternator.
If you were wanting to go 16volts because of starter lag issues, I mentioned the availability of a HD starter that is killer. It makes huge torque and was actually designed from scratch for HD Ford applications.
So my point was there is no reason for you to go to 16volts and all the extras it will require. Whether it was starting or charging, parts at 12volts are available to do the job, just dont look for them on Ebay. :)

[dizope]

Hello, new to the forum. I have a question after reading this thread and calling PowerMaster. I have a 66 Impala Drag Car that runs 9.90's on the bottle. I need to power the following items:

- Transbrake
- Single stage NOS Big Shot
- Bottle Warmer
- CSR Water Pump
- Electric Fan
- Holley Blue Pump
- Holley Black Pump
- MSD Digital 6 Plus
- Headlights/Tailights/Gauges

I also have March Serp Pulleys, Crank Pulley measures about 6.25 inch and Alternator Pulley about 2.75 across the entire face. PowerMaster said that was fine and their 140amp Alternator would do the trick. Idling at 1000-1200 rpms would give me 80amps.

My old Alternator was an 80amp 1 wire custom built by a local shop and I had severe voltage drop issues. If you didn't already guess this is a 12volt system with 1 redtop Optima.

What do you guys think?

Thanks in advance!!!

PowerMaster PN: 47294
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=PWM%2D47294&N=700+115&autoview=sku

[RRRAAAYYY2]

I think your 80amp alternator is way under powering your car, LOL. I also condemned another Red Top today, kept hearing "but I just bought it, I just bought it". Told him he was better off with the used interstate he had in the trunk (for boosting). Something you wont often ever hear me say.

As for the alternator, PowerMaster is a good manufacturer, a much better place to go than ebay. Off the top of my head I think you will be needing more than 80 amps at idle, but you can go through the calculations yourself here : http://www.svapowerproducts.com/html/how_big_of_an_alternator_do_i_.html (the site is a mess, but the FAQ is working)

I also recommend an alternator with avalanche diodes when you have MSD or other computerized equipment on board.

[noslix]

Are you just adding a resistor in the "A" of the regulator. Remember for 16volt batteries you want about an 18volt charge rate.


No, I found external regulator adapters for both the 3g and 4g and an adjustable external regulator. From your website, it looks like you have something similar.

[RRRAAAYYY2]

LOL, yeah I do and thanks for the headsup on the adapters. I have been custom making them for the 3G's, was perplexed on an easy way to do it on the 4gs though. Will be checking them both out tomorrow.
The external regulator is the best approach I think, as it is not trying to trick the regulator, it is actually designed to do the job. More reliable in the long term.

[Mean Green]

What are thoughts on using a large Cap to isolate the electronics from alt. noise or spikes in the charging system in 16 volt systems.
Thanks in advance,

[RRRAAAYYY2]

Batteries are very large caps, just a little slower in response than the ones you see in stereo cars. Though if you put a few batteries together they can have very close to the same internal resistance as a car stereo cap, with way more capacity. We wire three or four batteries together in large system cars, it is like haveing a 8000 to 10000 farad cap.

Automotive batteries are great at asorbing noise. I recommend the alternator's main battery output going directly to the battery, with no take offs along the way. This helps when the kill switch is thrown, it guarantees instant shut off of the car. It also makes sure that all the power coming from the alternator is filter by the battery before it goes into your system.

To be extra safe for in case of an accident you can fuse the alternator line as close to the battery as possible. This way if that line is cut during an accident, it would pop the fuse.

With todays every increasing electrical loads I would want to put a 1 farad cap on the feed to my ignition. However doing so would cause the vehicle to continue to run for a moment after the kill switch was employeed. So I would suspect they are considered illegal. Then again a small cap would likely only be able to support the sytem for less than a second.

[Moparchris440]

the new V batteries are kick ass Nearly as much CCA as 2 powermasters and just as much in reserve, and 1 batt is lighter than two. Mid season i switch to 1 v batt and didnt notice any difference from 2 power masters. I run no alt.

[RRRAAAYYY2]

You should in the long run as lighter means less lead, and same CCA in the same size box means thinner platers. So your durablity should be out the window compared to a heavier low CCa battery. Different coatings on the plates can account for some performance improvements, but nothing over 10-15 percent.

Since this thread started there has been some annoucments of 24volt products. I would think you will see 16volt system dead very, very shortly.

[ray jr]

who makes the v batteries? anyone know about the altronics battery?