Religion (narrow minded people please keep out)

[Monty Mikho]

We have the freedom of choosing any religion we want to practice to a certain degree. This limit is if it breaks laws and/or harms others beliefs. I, myself, am not too big on religion. I was born Catholic and it was shoved down my throat as a kid. A life changing event happened to me at the age of 17. I became lost (or maybe I found myself) with religion. I went out and read about other religions to better understand why everyone believes their religion is the only right one. Although I did not read each from cover to cover I got a pretty good understanding from what I had read. To think in today’s world we have changed little parts of the events and made new religions. 3000 different religions came out of this… 3000!! Which one is truly right? In the end every religion believes in a higher power. They fear this higher power!! Is it correct to live life in fear? I try to be and do what I believe is right or good for myself and others. I have not killed and do not try to hurt others although I sometimes do. Does this make me a bad person?

Back in history when Jesus was still on earth religion was run as a business. Not much has changed since. The high priests used to pass their fear of God to collect money or goods for their own fortune. Has time changed this? I drive by a church everyday that must have cost in sum of 40 million dollar range to build. Why is this needed? To make the business more profitable! Are all like this? Absolutely NOT!!! Some are good people who really do this from their heart.

Let’s take the Pope for example. He drives around in a bulletproof vehicle to save him from evil. Does the Pope himself not believe that our life is in Gods hands? What about the hiding of molested kids by his churches? Does this not make him an “evil” for hiding it? Why did he hide it? I believe he wanted to avoid the embarrassment to himself and the religion. Is what he did right? I believe not!! I believe it was also done so he doesn’t lose business and income from the followers of his religion.

Now let’s take Mother Teresa as an example. Here is a lady who gave up all her money and well being to help children across the world. She did this from here heart and not for her pocket book. She died doing things for others most of her life. Wonderful person!!!

Now this topic gets more in-depth with me. I have also read the Satanic Bible out of curiosity. Does this make me a bad person? Well would you only listen to my side of the story and base all your opinions on it? To appreciate one you have to understand both. Me? I stopped believing and try to be the best person I can by Monty’s book. Judge me by who I am not by my opinions or beliefs. This is my rant today… Fire back with your opinions... Thanks for reading..

[Fat Daddy]

Damn man that sh_t is deep. Keep on.

[Rod Lenz]

Monty, I'm a Christian/Methodist now and have been for 6 years. I deeply respect your opinion on this subject. We have many parallels on this and at one time I was where you are now. After a severe physical and mental breakdown, I found I just couldn't go it alone anymore. This is what has worked for me.

[fasterw18s]

Well, really the question is.....are you a Christian, or are you a Religionist?

Organized religion is like any other thing man has invented, its used to benefit those few at the top, while controlling those with no power.

We have the Bible, even if its not perfect, its the best guide we have....or we have all other religious groups.

[LSWHO]

Can believing in GOD be enough ? I also used to be catholic (baptised at 12) I can't understand if your not catholic or methodist or whatever your preference of religion is you will not make it. Can't just believing and being the best person you can be following the rules in the Bible be enough ? Do I have to attend, donate, repent in the walls of a church? Is not being a good person and following the bible enough to get me to Heaven ?

[Chris Uratchko]

I can't comment as I'm narrow minded. For wide is gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction. Small is the gate and Narrow the road to life.

I will comment on this though. Not one of us is 'good' enough to stand before God.

Thank about that for a bit.

[Rick Miller]

Can believing in GOD be enough ? I also used to be catholic (baptised at 12) I can't understand if your not catholic or methodist or whatever your preference of religion is you will not make it. Can't just believing and being the best person you can be following the rules in the Bible be enough ? Do I have to attend, donate, repent in the walls of a church? Is not being a good person and following the bible enough to get me to Heaven ?

Jesus said, I am the way and the life. No one comes to the Father but through the Son.

[Bobalos]

Monty,

about the only thing I could suggest is that you study it for yourself (which you have) & make your own decision. I dont believe in "religion", as its defined today. what I believe in, is the Bible (I read the NKJ, NAS, & the living bible for perspective). I dont believe that there is any NEED for anything other than the bible. Yes, I goto Church, Yes we participate in our church, Yes I goto Bible study for both fellowship (aka support group) & to get others opinions on how they interprite the bible, but is that "required", NO. there is only 1 thing required.

Lets look @ it from an analytical perspective. the Bible is 66 books writen over >1000 years & something like 23 or 24 Authors. If you study it in the original text, & in the context its intended, there are NO 2 passages in it that contradict anything else (Key statement there). How could that possibly be, if it was not inspired by God? being the scientific/Eng kind of guy I am, thats just WAAAAAAAAAAAAY too awesome a statistic.


There is more I could comment, but in the end, you have to make your own decision. I would encourage you (all) to do it for yourselves, before its too late. BTW, when you die, its too late & no one knows when thier number is gonna get called.

Bob

[Chris Uratchko]

What's also amazing is that there are over 300 prophesies that detailed Jesus coming, hundreds, and thousands of years prior to his first coming. And He fulfilled ALL of them. I would urge you to study this. FORGET religion. Religion is worldly garbage created by man.

[Bobalos]

Have you heard the statistic about him fullfilling something like 20 of those prophesies? the one about silver dollars & the state of Texas? it was crazy.

Bob

[Chris Uratchko]

No Bob I haven't heard that one. You'll have to enlighten me.

[Bobalos]

Let me see if I cant dig it up.

Bob

[Rick Miller]

Have you heard the statistic about him fullfilling something like 20 of those prophesies? the one about silver dollars & the state of Texas? it was crazy.

Bob

Yes I have , Some coincedence (sp) Hummm

[Bobalos]

OK, here it is.

Demonstration 1:

If I flip this silver dollar, what are the odds that it will come up heads? 1/2

If I flip two coins, what are the odds that both will be heads? 1/4 (one chance right, three wrong)

If I flip three, the odds are 1/8. Each time I add a coin, the chance are twice as unlikely.

At 100 coins the odds are 1/1,267,650,600,228,230,000,000,000,000,000

(1 nonillion or a trillion, trillion, billion).

Would you say that is pretty much impossible? I know something even more impossible.

Demonstration 2:

What if I were to have child close his/her eyes and give this silver dollar to someone in this class. What are the chances she could guess

who has it? (1/size of class).

What if I were to give it to anyone in Decatur? (~1/5200)

The state of Texas? (~1/21,000,000)

The whole county? (~1/270,000,000)

The world? (~1/6 billion)

Would you say that is pretty much impossible? I know something even more impossible.

Demonstration 3:

What if I were to cover the floor with silver dollars, mark just one of them, and have child walk around blindfolded then bend down and

pickup one coin. How likely would it be that he would pick out that one coin?

What if I were to cover the whole building?

The whole state?

Would you say that is pretty much impossible? I know something even more impossible.



Conclusion: You would have to cover the entire state of Texas with silver dollars two feet deep, to match the odds that one person would fulfill just eight Old Testament prophecies about the Messiah. That is one in one hundred million billion (1 followed by 17 zeros). This is millions of time greater than the total number of people who've ever lived.

If you consider 48 prophesies, the chances that one person would fulfill all of them is one in a trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion. (Show attachment.) If you take the number of atoms in our entire universe, it would take a trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, billion (1 followed by 57 zeros) universes to have that many atoms.

"The odds alone say that it would be impossible for anyone to fulfill the Old Testament prophecies. Yet Jesus and only Jesus through out all of history managed to do it."



Source: Prophesy probabilities from The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel (p. 183)


now those are some odds.


Bob

[Chris Uratchko]

I have that book Bob. Obviously never read it.

I'm not real happy with Mr. Strobel right now.

[Rod Lenz]

As for me, Getting back to the origin of the thread, I chose the church I belong to not because of "the labaled religeon" but because these people welcomed a broken man (me) and accepted him as family. In My Humble Opinion (TC) we as believers are going to the same place, it's just that some of us are in different lanes. Jesus has lane choice BTW :-D

[MamaJAMA]

Jesus was not religous...and religous people killed Him. :evil:

I don't care much (at all) for religous people :smt064 but He forgave them (and me) so I've gotta open my heart to them so maybe they'll get a glimpse of Him

[Monty Mikho]

Figured I would pull this back up for the Mule!! :p

[Shelton_Barrs]

anything touched by man, can be corrupted by man.

[lightninquick]

reading post 14 about all those prophacies,,,made me fell like i was watching chris angle's mine freak

[GrahamHill]

Fear? Nah. Privileged? Yup! Its an honor to humbly serve. We dont live in fear but we live in opportunity.

[Monty Mikho]

Fear? Nah. Privileged? Yup! Its an honor to humbly serve. We dont live in fear but we live in opportunity.


Actually you fear death. If you have so much faith you would wish the day you die to meet your maker. You denying this fact makes as much sense as a man who has faith in a cure for cancer but fears taking it.

[GrahamHill]

Actually you fear death. If you have so much faith you would wish the day you die to meet your maker. You denying this fact makes as much sense as a man who has faith in a cure for cancer but fears taking it.
There's a lot of people who call on the name just for fire insurance that dont realize that they dont actually have salvation. Sometimes preachers preach "hell hell hell" so much that people "profess" the name of Jesus just because they came afraid of dying and going eternally to hell.

A person can't be "saved" just because they are afraid of dying and going to hell. Salvation is being in love with Christ and deciding to live for the Lord.

[Shelton_Barrs]

Actually you fear death. If you have so much faith you would wish the day you die to meet your maker. You denying this fact makes as much sense as a man who has faith in a cure for cancer but fears taking it.

I disagree. I do not fear death, I am prepared for death and given the circumstances I am quite willing to die, but that does not mean I want to die. I dont think there are very many people, religous or otherwise, that truly want to die.

[Monty Mikho]

There's a lot of people who call on the name just for fire insurance that dont realize that they dont actually have salvation. Sometimes preachers preach "hell hell hell" so much that people "profess" the name of Jesus just because they came afraid of dying and going eternally to hell.

A person can't be "saved" just because they are afraid of dying and going to hell. Salvation is being in love with Christ and deciding to live for the Lord.

Again you should wish for death. The less time any human is given. The less time they have to make errors.. Christianity is only about salvation. I have yet to meet anyone who follows the writings of the bible. Everyone has the excuse of "we will never be as perfect as Jesus"... and I will say not one even tries..

[Monty Mikho]

I disagree. I do not fear death, I am prepared for death and given the circumstances I am quite willing to die, but that does not mean I want to die. I dont think there are very many people, religous or otherwise, that truly want to die.


If you had cancer.. would you take the cure you had faith in?

[GrahamHill]

Again you should wish for death. The less time any human is given. The less time they have to make errors.. Christianity is only about salvation. I have yet to meet anyone who follows the writings of the bible. Everyone has the excuse of "we will never be as perfect as Jesus"... and I will say not one even tries..
Christianity is about living as Christ lived so that God is glorified.

The purpose of our existance is to bring God glory.

Choosing to do different is the very core definition of sin, btw.

I have yet to meet anyone who follows the writings of the bible.
Hence the reason we try to be like Christ instead of billy bob, betty, or dan.

[Monty Mikho]

Christianity is about living as Christ lived so that God is glorified.

Really? If Jesus was alive today. Would he want the Muslims killed? Would he be working harder to buy materialistic things in life? Would he not commit his life to helping the poor and starving? Now show me someone (beside Mother Teresa) who has done this.. Oh Im sorry Ghandi also.. But he wasn't a Christian and will probably burn in hell because he was not a believer in your God..

The purpose of our existance is to bring God glory.

How do you measure glory? Sounds egotistical!!

Choosing to do different is the very core definition of sin, btw.
Who defines sin? At one time alcohol was outlawed. Was it then a sin to drink wine? Sins are laws made by man. Otherwise a man knocking up a 13 YO girl wouldn't be a sin today.


Hence the reason we try to be like Christ instead of billy bob, betty, or dan.


How was Christ? The book on Christ has 72 different versions. Which one is right? Let me guess.. the one you chose...

[Mark O'Neal]

1. Prophesies are easy to fill. They tell you what to do.....

2. Mother Teresa believed that one found salvation through suffering. She was cruel.

Other than that, your feelings are as valid as any.

[Shelton_Barrs]

If you had cancer.. would you take the cure you had faith in?

Yes, but maybe not the one you think. I have a very good friend that had his father die from brain cancer. Horrible death. He did the chemo thing for awhile, got tired of the side effects. They gave him weeks to live, he made it 2 yrs without chemo. A man that I watched pickup a fully dressed SBC reduced to someone that could barely hold a cup of coffee. I wouldn't wish that on no one. And yes, he was a man of considerable faith.

Here is a little funny I heard from a preacher to demonstrate what I mean (I am paraprashing a good bit)...

There is rain and it starts to flood, everybody is told to leave. The local sheriff comes by and tells the old man, "Sir, it is time to leave.". The old man, replies "The Lord shall provide, I am not leaving."

The rain continues to fall and the water gets deeper. Another emergency worker comes by in a boat and says to the old man, "Sir, the water is getting deeper, you need to leave.". The old man replies, "I am not leaving, the Lord will provide."

The rain continues to fall and the water is even deeper. The old man is now on the roof of his house and is surrounded by water. Another emergency worker comes to him, this time by helicopter and says, "Sir, you must leave, you surly will not survive if you stay." to which the old man replies "I am not leaving, the Lord shall provide."

Upon his death he meets the Lord and says "Lord, Why did you not provide?" to which the Lord replied, " I did, three times and you refused."

I believe the Lord works in various ways, sometimes in ways we don't understand and defy logic, in other ways that are less obvious and easily passed off as something else. But at the end of the day, we have to make our own choices.

[Mark Walter]

You know Monty I'd love to sit down with you and talk about this... trying to have a real conversation on the web is almost impossible... especially on the bullet ;)

[Monty Mikho]

I often wonder where this lord was when his representatives were sticking their penis's in little boys butts. Surely the child did nothing and Lord knows who is preaching the "good word" for him.

[Monty Mikho]

You know Monty I'd love to sit down with you and talk about this... trying to have a real conversation on the web is almost impossible... especially on the bullet ;)


Mark I get a lot of talk from many people who know one side of the deal. They fear the other side as they have been taught If more people took the time to understand both sides they would most likely stand in the middle. That is where I am at...

[64Post]

I believe the Lord works in various ways, sometimes in ways we don't understand and defy logic, in other ways that are less obvious and easily passed off as something else.

IMO, I believe your standards of proof are ambiguous and vague, and could be construed in a number of ways. That said, if a majority of believers had the same standards, I could easily see why they would believe a God is their life.

[64Post]

I often wonder where this lord was when his representatives were sticking their penis's in little boys butts. Surely the child did nothing and Lord knows who is preaching the "good word" for him.

Uh oh...

[Monty Mikho]

anyone ever notice when someone gets hurt they go to the hospital. Yet when they are saved they thank God. If they die the family blames the doctor and files a lawsuit... :p

[Monty Mikho]

If God was in charge of life!! There would be no doctors. The lord would simply give any man on the streets the means to save the other persons life if God didn't do it himself. What is funny is most religious are against science. Yet when they need it to live they are the first ones in line to take advantage of it. But when it isn't needed they doubt and protest it. All to avoid their day with their God... Hell it all makes sense now..

[silvercv2002]

HOLY SHIT MONTY!! I left catholicism when I was 17.

I have also read about many other religions including Satanism. I even practiced it for awhile. Damn...

[Shelton_Barrs]

IMO, I believe your standards of proof are ambiguous and vague, and could be construed in a number of ways. That said, if a majority of believers had the same standards, I could easily see why they would believe a God is their life.

where some people see God, others don't. Thats why I am glad we both live where we do....

[Monty Mikho]

HOLY SHIT MONTY!! I left catholicism when I was 17.

I have also read about many other religions including Satanism. I even practiced it for awhile. Damn...

Dont say that too loud.. they will say you're Satan.. :p:p

[Monty Mikho]

where some people see God, others don't. Thats why I am glad we both live where we do....


I have a question I have asked before. It is said that there are microorganisms on Mars. The same as some speculate as the beginning of life on earth. Say they are right and Mars will someday have humans. Do you think they will have their own God or will they borrow ours?

[64Post]

If God was in charge of life!! There would be no doctors. The lord would simply give any man on the streets the means to save the other persons life if God didn't do it himself. What is funny is most religious are against science. Yet when they need it to live they are the first ones in line to take advantage of it. But when it isn't needed they doubt and protest it. All to avoid their day with their God... Hell it all makes sense now..

Similar analogy I find amusing:

A couple tries for years to conceive a child. They try every method including prayer. When that doesn't work, they turn to science and fertility drugs. Now, the woman has 8 fetuses (or is it feti, :p) and she is advised by the doctor to terminate a few of them to give a better chance of survival to the others. Of course, they can't because "it's in God's hands now".

Where was God's hands when you were trying conceive? Maybe He was trying to tell you something...

[Monty Mikho]

Similar analogy I find amusing:

A couple tries for years to conceive a child. They try every method including prayer. When that doesn't work, they turn to science and fertility drugs. Now, the woman has 8 fetuses (or is it feti, :p) and she is advised by the doctor to terminate a few of them to give a better chance of survival to the others. Of course, they can't because "it's in God's hands now".

Where was God's hands when you were trying conceive? Maybe He was trying to tell you something...

The funniest shit ever is the last Pope said.. and I quote "It was one hand that pulled the trigger but another hand the guided the bullet" Well where the phuck was that other hand to pull the finger off the trigger? Also if he was that confident why did he get the pope-mobile built? Even the Pope didn't believe his own bullshit!!

[slow72velle]

Dont say that too loud.. they will say you're Satan.. :p:p

I don't get why he would want to worship a phuckstick like yourself...

[Twotontird]

Just a question.... why does a man of god (the pope) ride around in a bullet proof popemobile........ is he afraid to go to heaven? If a man of such profound faith believes he is going to heaven why would you be afraid to die?

[Monty Mikho]

Just a question.... why does a man of god (the pope) ride around in a bullet proof popemobile........ is he afraid to go to heaven? If a man of such profound faith believes he is going to heaven why would you be afraid to die?

Because he wanted to pass the good word on earth longer. He also wanted to smooth over the molestation charged by his people before he died. 52 million is a drop in the bucket when you have so many blind followers to give to the cause.

This leads to ask.. Are all Catholics funds a support of child molestation since its their money that paid for the fines?

[Shelton_Barrs]

I have a question I have asked before. It is said that there are microorganisms on Mars. The same as some speculate as the beginning of life on earth. Say they are right and Mars will someday have humans. Do you think they will have their own God or will they borrow ours?

Think they just proved that the soil is to toxic to support life on Mars? But seriously, I don't know. I think God takes different forms for different people...

[Monty Mikho]

I don't get why he would want to worship a phuckstick like yourself...

Read the other side and that would answer your question. Make sure you wear gloves so you dont burn your hands..

[Monty Mikho]

Think they just proved that the soil is to toxic to support life on Mars? But seriously, I don't know. I think God takes different forms for different people...

That is possible. I have not read much about it since after their first findings.

[slow72velle]

Read the other side and that would answer your question. Make sure you wear gloves so you dont burn your hands..

Hands are already burnt, but I have never had much interest in studying either side. And no, I am not a blind follower as many are.

[Monty Mikho]

Hands are already burnt, but I have never had much interest in studying either side. And no, I am not a blind follower as many are.

I recommend everyone take the time to read several religious books. They will then clearly see just how evil the holy books are...

[GrahamHill]

Really? If Jesus was alive today. Would he want the Muslims killed? Would he be working harder to buy materialistic things in life? Would he not commit his life to helping the poor and starving? Now show me someone (beside Mother Teresa) who has done this.. Oh Im sorry Ghandi also.. But he wasn't a Christian and will probably burn in hell because he was not a believer in your God..



How do you measure glory? Sounds egotistical!!


Who defines sin? At one time alcohol was outlawed. Was it then a sin to drink wine? Sins are laws made by man. Otherwise a man knocking up a 13 YO girl wouldn't be a sin today.



How was Christ? The book on Christ has 72 different versions. Which one is right? Let me guess.. the one you chose...


Im sorry you cant absorb something so simple.

[Monty Mikho]

Im sorry you cant absorb something so simple.

If it was simple one would not need to drive 10 miles every Sunday to have the same book read to them over and over again. Also I believe the bible was around 1200 (depending on revision) pages long. Seems rather complex for something so simple.

[I'm Slow]

I recommend everyone take the time to read several religious books. They will then clearly see just how evil the holy books are...

I'll bite. What specifically is "evil" in the holy books? Your first post had some interesting points in it, many of which I agree with. This one is losing me, though. Can you point to any specific literature, since that's what you've been claiming helped open your eyes, that led you to the conclusion that the bible is evil? Who knows, we may have read some of the same stuff.

[Jeremy J]

"I will sweep away everything in all your land," says the LORD. "I will sweep away both people and animals alike. Even the birds of the air and the fish in the sea will die. I will reduce the wicked to heaps of rubble, along with the rest of humanity," says the LORD. "I will crush Judah and Jerusalem with my fist and destroy every last trace of their Baal worship. I will put an end to all the idolatrous priests, so that even the memory of them will disappear. For they go up to their roofs and bow to the sun, moon, and stars. They claim to follow the LORD, but then they worship Molech, too. So now I will destroy them! And I will destroy those who used to worship me but now no longer do. They no longer ask for the LORD's guidance or seek my blessings." (Zephaniah 1:2-6 NLT)



When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are about to enter and occupy, he will clear away many nations ahead of you: the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites. These seven nations are all more powerful than you. When the LORD your God hands these nations over to you and you conquer them, you must completely destroy them. Make no treaties with them and show them no mercy. Do not intermarry with them, and don't let your daughters and sons marry their sons and daughters. They will lead your young people away from me to worship other gods. Then the anger of the LORD will burn against you, and he will destroy you. (Deuteronomy 7:1-4 NLT)

[DaveH]

I have a question I have asked before. It is said that there are microorganisms on Mars. The same as some speculate as the beginning of life on earth. Say they are right and Mars will someday have humans. Do you think they will have their own God or will they borrow ours?

Microorganisms can never develop into humans,thus making your whole question a silly one.

:)

[SilverFox]

My opinion.....DITTO....ESPECIALLY this part

Me? I stopped believing and try to be the best person I can by Monty’s book. Judge me by who I am not by my opinions or beliefs.

And I'll add, "and judge me not by my choice of explitives to convey how strongly I feel about a particular subject."

Peace

[Mule]

Because he wanted to pass the good word on earth longer. He also wanted to smooth over the molestation charged by his people before he died. 52 million is a drop in the bucket when you have so many blind followers to give to the cause.

This leads to ask.. Are all Catholics funds a support of child molestation since its their money that paid for the fines?

You seem all focused on child molesting priests. What about muslim rapists who, after raping young girls, persuade them that the only way to remove the shame of being raped by this trash, is to be a suicide bomber for allah. Want to duscuss that Monty?

[dougg01]

Monty, I don't know you, but you seem a bit bitter.

Let's get some things straight....m-kay....

(looks for 5-layer firesuit and nomex underwear)

Religons and denominations are man-made. They're our attempts to twist things to our liking. Don't we always pervert the pure to make us happy.

God doesn't cause much of what happens to happen. He allows it. This doesn't mean He isn't concerned or not involved. There is His will...His plan...and then we try to do things in and of ourselves. Back at the garden is where it started. Our seperation from Him (spiritual death) allows our world to be fallen.

People don't determine sin. The Law determines sin. People are called to deal with sin. To deal with sin you need to understand your own potential and bent towards it.

The pope, ain't God's man. He's not holy (holy = without sin, blameless). He's part of a political control empire built on man-made tradition and fear.

There was never a world-wide church organization ordained by God. The church (the body of believers) is a seperate, local, autonomous body. Sure we can fellowship and learn from one another, but having a National or International body to determine doctrine was never part of the plan. It's corruptive, like government and the destruction caused by a local leader is more easily mitigated than that of a global one.

Personally, I don't know which bible half the denominations today teach from because it sure isn't the same ones I've been studying. We have liberty in areas because the bible is specifically non-specific. We have overseers (leaders of the local church) that are trained in doctrine and rightly understanding and imparting the word of God.

The bible isn't all that difficult to understand, but.....it does require study and thought. Taking things out of the context of the setting, time, author, circumstances, etc leads to false doctrine. We use the portions that are clear to make the portions that seem unclear a bit more understandable.

People have trouble with the old Testament, the levitical law, and the harshness often found there. It's the way it was, but the new covenant (in Christ) made many of the penalties for sin of that time moot. Christ became the ultimate sacrifice for them. The doctrines of the Old Testament are still valid and its teachings are profitable. To know where you are....you need to know where you've been.

All faiths of the world, except one, have a pathway of doing to 'earn' a right to be in the presence of God with nothing between you and He. The faith taught in the bible tells you that you can't earn it, because it will never be enough or for the right reasons. The only thing you can do in and of yourself is to accept that bridge has been built for you....really...for you. Your sin keeps you on one side and if you'll accept that the toll has been paid then you will be carried to the other side. It's an easily understandable economy. The other religons of the world have a sliding scale of some kind that is quite hard to pin down as to what is really required and you end up not knowing whether it was enough.

Because if this fallen world...our nature.....our rebellion, stuff happens. I don't like it. I certainly don't like the things I do, but don't want to do and end up doing anyway. God sees what we don't. He understands the beginning from the end as none of us can grasp. I pray my sons don't fall prey to something someday, but I can bet you that in my maturity I won't blame God if it happens. I might blame me....or pin it on someone else, but not God.

Ghandi - give me a break. He laid naked with teenage girls to prove to himself he could remain celebate. That's real profitable for those girls ain't it. Selfish arrogance. Martyrdom is sometimes the most extreme form of selfishness there is. Many of us knew or had a mom that would 'sacrifice' her time and energy or well-being 'for the family'. It drew her attention and sympathy and sometimes accolades from others for having made that sacrifice. Some sacrifice is required as a parent, but certainly not to the level some have led us to believe. Ghandi had some good teachings, but he was a hypocrite.

Find a church where the people are gregarious, caring, open, and faithful and DON'T join it. You'll screw it up. Everyone one of us has a hangup and a problem. Every church (again...local body of believers) has issues. Just because a church is growing and has a $150M new building and runs 8,000 members doesn't mean as a whole the place is on fire for God. Might be they are just sittin fat, dumb, and happy and Satan likes it that way.

Lucifer knows the bible as well as Christ. As the most beautiful angel, he had quite the prominent position in heaven. Being cast out of heaven after thinking he was as high as the Most High was the ultimate humiliation. He still thinks he can be as the Most High and despises God's love and grace towards us. We being sinners, Lucifer knows we aren't fit to be in God's presence and would just as soon see us perish. Instead he gets to watch as God's grace and mercy continually intervene. Our fallen world is a great arena for Satan to ply his wares and seek to keep us on the path to eternal death. To his dismay, God has a plan and makes himself known to each of us. Unfortunately our bent, our desire is not to follow God and not to reach out to Him. We're easily blinded to the truth.

thousands of years-worth of writings culiminating in one canon of scripture. All agree when taken in context. 40 different writers from all walks of life using their God-given talents to record as God directed. Part looking forward towards Christ and part looking back at Him. Over the centuries the word could have easily been perverted to eliminate Christ, show a need to gather wealth for the church, or allow for pleasurable immorality. It wasn't. It's preserved. It's teachings are profitable, insightfulm, and have stood the test of time. People muddy the water. People take things too far (well you can't take salvation too far). Accepting Christ isn't some silver bullet that one day makes you perfect. Sorry. Your soul might be safely guarded by Jesus, but your body is still in this world and is still a corrupt, sinful shell influenced by what we are exposed to.

Why do some seem to have more or even lead easier lives while others struggle or have little...? My answer is in a question - Is blessing about having stuff or having it easy....? Did you know that the word 'profitable' as it is in the bible is really 'shalom'....? Peace. It's got nothing to do with the perfect job, 2.3 kids, 2 cars, and no debt. It's also not holding yourself to celebacy (which for a man is a gift and not something he or an institution like catholicism can enforce adherence to) and a life of poverty. God has a purpose for each of us and it may be to be rich and healthy and provide for others. It's may be to be poor and be an example of strength and long-suffering. What comes my way is either teaching me something, showing me something, teaching someone else something, or showing someone else something. It doesn't always feel good, but I don't see anywhere from Genesis 1:1 to Rev 22:21 where it was ever promised I was going to be happy and feel good. Those things come from contentment.

God answers requests three ways - yes, no and not right now. Sometime what we ask for isn't beneficial to us. Sometimes we're not ready for it yet. Sometimes He gives us our desires to allow us to learn from it. Sometimes He gives us what we want in spite of ourselves.

You got a beef with the church (a building or organization) then take it up with them. Got a problem with the church (body of beleivers) then you need to check yourself out some first. None of us are blameless. Christ didn't offer or provide forgiveness to the unrepentant. He still loved and engaged them, but that grace was and is withheld from the unrepentant.

God is love. You've heard it time and time again. It's a jealous love. Its a lasting love. It's a fatherly love. It's a just love. He doesn't need your fellowshipand doesn't need your love. He wants it. So much so He allowed His Son to be condemned and sacrificed just for you. No really....for you. His love is abundant, abounding, and abiding. Look those three up and you'll almost have a grasp of what its like.

Of course....I could just be a crackpot wanting your money. Got any....? :)

[dougg01]

You seem all focused on child molesting priests. What about muslim rapists who, after raping young girls, persuade them that the only way to remove the shame of being raped by this trash, is to be a suicide bomber for allah. Want to duscuss that Monty?

Actually, unless it was witnessed by 4 other men who testify you didn't go willingly - you get punished for fornication which is often done through stoning or lashes. A daughter that disgraces her family (as the above cause would do) must be put to death by her father. This happens in countries we are 'allies' with and are considered 'civilized'. Who is it that's living in the dark ages....?

More young boys are raped or made prostitutes in muslim countries. They are the 'concubines' and it's rarely spoken of. Mohammad did partake in the practice himself. The institution of sodomy on kids and all the health problems it invites brought to you by a 'book of peace'.

[unholy1]

This is getting awfully deep! Let's see what I can conjure up.

I have never been baptized, though I believed in God until about the age of 12. I went to church with my mother (Methodist), sat in Sunday school and absorbed all that was taught. For some reason, though, none of it moved me at a "spiritual" level.

I am an atheist. That is hard to say in a world so dominated by religion. I ask my religious friends and relatives why they believe. Most just say that it was just taught to them. Others say that they want to go to heaven, whatever that may be. All religious people need to ask themselves the following questions;

1) Do you believe out of fear or love?
2) Is your faith based purely on youthful indoctrination or a personal, spiritual experience that you had?

I have never felt any personal, spiritual experience. When I go to church - either for a wedding or funeral - I feel nothing. No different than when I go to Wal-Mart or the race track. I don't believe that you can be truely religious without some type of personal, spiritual experience with God. If you have, then your faith is justified by insight. If you haven't, then your faith is based on pure speculation.

I find religion, in general, fascinating. The evolution of belief from the caveman to modern day man. No matter what you believe, most religions require that you suspend the rules of the physical world for the supernatural (above-nature). How did this come to be? Why does the existence of the physical need a supernatural explanation? Because man needs to explain the unexplainable. How do you explain the unexplainable? With science or supernatural belief. When the caveman witnessed the sun rise or the hail fall or a bright light streaking across the sky, he could not reconcile it with what he "knew". All of these events were supernatural because he could not explain them in any other terms. As science advanced, these supernatural events were explained. They became the results of physical systems, not supernatural intervention. As science advances and explains the previously unexplained, the pool of the supernatural shrinks.

One issue I've always had with Christian theology is the notion of free-will. God granted free-will to humanity, however, you must believe in Christ for salvation to occur. Logically, if you place limitations on what you must do (or cannot do) to be saved, then free-will does not exist. "You are free to live by you conscience, but if you don't listen to me, then you will burn in a lake of fire." It is similar to someone holding a gun to your head and telling you that you have free-will, but if you move you will be shot. That is not free-will, it's coersion. What if I choose not to follow Jesus? What if I choose to live in the absence of God? What is I choose to live a good, righteous life? Will I be punished for these decisions? Will I be damned to burn for eternity? Where is the free-will?

I do not want to offend. Talk amongst yourselves :)

[dougg01]

Oh my goodness. You're going to wear me out. I'm not a young man anymore (by my standards).

Religons are fascinating. Faith is interesting.

This 'feeling' you allude to is a result of faith. Having faith because you have a feeling.......gets tricky. Feelings often fail us pre-faith (post-faith too).

Indoctrination is a touchy subject. 'because my parents did' is not a good arguement, but.....they also ate, slept, worked, went to school.....so you have that.

Certainly some are drawn because of fear. The unknown or the percieved is something we all fear. There are also those who want to hedge their bets. 'If there is a God and a Heaven then why wouldn't I want to be part of that and.....these princicples they teach for living your life do seem to be pretty good'. Some are drawn for comfort (obviously due to fear, pain, loneliness, etc). Some are curious and in wonder of the world around them and simply can't come to another conclusion for the agreement in the world around us.

Coming to the cross is the ONE selfish act that is uniquely desireable and profitable for us. I want a wife because I want to feel loved. I want kids because I like kids and how they make me feel. I want to run a 5k in 16:00 flat because it will feel so good and I might win my age group. I want a Savior because He said He'll love me no matter what.

The free-will verses pre-ordianed debate rages still. I ahve free will to choose the Lord or not. The eternal lake of fire is only my destination in my reality if I buy into the whole thing in the first place, right. So, if'n I don't, big deal. If I'm understanding the concept of eternity, sin, and divinity then it might mean something to me and I might want to do something about it.....if it's important enough.

Free will.

Does God know if you will do something about it or not.? Yup.

He wants you to choose. Otherwise, we're mindless robots and should not even bother pondering in the first place. Why would we need a bible, all the players and all the stories ...or even recorded history if we're all blind robots.

Does He guide...? You bet. Do even the most 'spiritual' among us follow...? Once in a while. God could be calling my attention to something right here in this thread.....or not. Chances are I'll miss it. We're blind to what God has for us. Some of that is our sin nature. some is certainly the world and its distractions and traps. Some is certainly Satan's work trying to amp those traps and pitfals and telling us we don't need God or there is no such thing.

Funny.....if the writers of the bible were such hucksters looking to control folks, the lot of them (mostly uneducated knuckle-draggers and few knew each other) figured out how to do a pretty good job of it.

[Mule]

Spot on! I don't think we should be allied with these murderers either.

[Mark O'Neal]

Microorganisms can never develop into humans,thus making your whole question a silly one.

:)

Why not?

[Mark O'Neal]

Oh my goodness. You're going to wear me out. I'm not a young man anymore (by my standards).

Religons are fascinating. Faith is interesting.

This 'feeling' you allude to is a result of faith. Having faith because you have a feeling.......gets tricky. Feelings often fail us pre-faith (post-faith too).

Indoctrination is a touchy subject. 'because my parents did' is not a good arguement, but.....they also ate, slept, worked, went to school.....so you have that.

Certainly some are drawn because of fear. The unknown or the percieved is something we all fear. There are also those who want to hedge their bets. 'If there is a God and a Heaven then why wouldn't I want to be part of that and.....these princicples they teach for living your life do seem to be pretty good'. Some are drawn for comfort (obviously due to fear, pain, loneliness, etc). Some are curious and in wonder of the world around them and simply can't come to another conclusion for the agreement in the world around us.

Coming to the cross is the ONE selfish act that is uniquely desireable and profitable for us. I want a wife because I want to feel loved. I want kids because I like kids and how they make me feel. I want to run a 5k in 16:00 flat because it will feel so good and I might win my age group. I want a Savior because He said He'll love me no matter what.

The free-will verses pre-ordianed debate rages still. I ahve free will to choose the Lord or not. The eternal lake of fire is only my destination in my reality if I buy into the whole thing in the first place, right. So, if'n I don't, big deal. If I'm understanding the concept of eternity, sin, and divinity then it might mean something to me and I might want to do something about it.....if it's important enough.

Free will.

Does God know if you will do something about it or not.? Yup.

He wants you to choose. Otherwise, we're mindless robots and should not even bother pondering in the first place. Why would we need a bible, all the players and all the stories ...or even recorded history if we're all blind robots.

Does He guide...? You bet. Do even the most 'spiritual' among us follow...? Once in a while. God could be calling my attention to something right here in this thread.....or not. Chances are I'll miss it. We're blind to what God has for us. Some of that is our sin nature. some is certainly the world and its distractions and traps. Some is certainly Satan's work trying to amp those traps and pitfals and telling us we don't need God or there is no such thing.

Funny.....if the writers of the bible were such hucksters looking to control folks, the lot of them (mostly uneducated knuckle-draggers and few knew each other) figured out how to do a pretty good job of it.

You state this as if it were fact.....

[Mark O'Neal]

Just a question.... why does a man of god (the pope) ride around in a bullet proof popemobile........ is he afraid to go to heaven? If a man of such profound faith believes he is going to heaven why would you be afraid to die?



Everybody wants to go to heaven.......don't nobody want to die......

[Hammer59]

Everybody wants to go to heaven.......don't nobody want to die......

I wanna die...

Take away the devil and there would be no churches left.
I love reading a good fairytale once in awhile so we better keep the devil alive an well so when the plate is passed it doesn't come back empty.

[silvercv2002]

I want to die also.

[Hammer59]

I want to die also.

I wanna see if there really is a god, I'll go first and let you know.
If you don't hear from me than you know that there is no god.
Deal or no deal?

[Mark O'Neal]

I wanna see if there really is a god, I'll go first and let you know.
If you don't hear from me than you know that there is no god.
Deal or no deal?


LOL.....DONE!

[dougg01]

You state this as if it were fact.....

I'll take that as a compliment. Better than being wishy-washy and not knowing what you believe.

Everyone has a religon or faith in something, system, belief. Most act like they are themselves a god. I know myself a little too well for that.

[lightninquick]

[quote=dougg01;1121616] Better than being wishy-washy and not knowing what you believe.

quote]


isnt that the same as putting your head in the sand?

[Mule]

I want to die also.

I'm pulling for you.

[SilverFox]

I'll take that as a compliment. Better than being wishy-washy and not knowing what you believe.

Everyone has a religon or faith in something, system, belief. Most act like they are themselves a god. I know myself a little too well for that.

So believing something makes it fact??!!

Did not know that......Thanks....As of now I have a 10" dick and a 7 (1/4 mile) second street car that can be driven to and from the track 120 miles away! Life IS good!

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[dougg01]

So believing something makes it fact??!!

Did not know that......Thanks....
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:


Context - he quote me saying I wrote that like I thought it was a fact.

I do think its fact. I didn't say, nor did he, that it was fact.

Some days its not like talking to a wall.:rolleyes:


Lake Charles, eh. While in the AF I worked with a girl from near there. Sumpter or something like that. Richard was her last name. I could listen to her accent all day long and never get tired of it.

[GrahamHill]

If it was simple one would not need to drive 10 miles every Sunday to have the same book read to them over and over again. Also I believe the bible was around 1200 (depending on revision) pages long. Seems rather complex for something so simple.
We go to worship. Its a sign of reverence as well. .. to share experiences and testimonies and what not.

I would have assumed the Catholics do the same but apparently not.

[Mark O'Neal]

I'll take that as a compliment. Better than being wishy-washy and not knowing what you believe.

Everyone has a religon or faith in something, system, belief. Most act like they are themselves a god. I know myself a little too well for that.

I'm happy that you believe that.

You're incorrect, but bully rah for you.....

........and you make a show of humility...which makes me think you're not humble.....

ahhhhh...there it is, you know the answer....

[Bob M]

Monty, I don't know you, but you seem a bit bitter.

Let's get some things straight....m-kay....

(looks for 5-layer firesuit and nomex underwear)

Religons and denominations are man-made. They're our attempts to twist things to our liking. Don't we always pervert the pure to make us happy.

God doesn't cause much of what happens to happen. He allows it. This doesn't mean He isn't concerned or not involved. There is His will...His plan...and then we try to do things in and of ourselves. Back at the garden is where it started. Our seperation from Him (spiritual death) allows our world to be fallen.

People don't determine sin. The Law determines sin. People are called to deal with sin. To deal with sin you need to understand your own potential and bent towards it.

The pope, ain't God's man. He's not holy (holy = without sin, blameless). He's part of a political control empire built on man-made tradition and fear.

There was never a world-wide church organization ordained by God. The church (the body of believers) is a seperate, local, autonomous body. Sure we can fellowship and learn from one another, but having a National or International body to determine doctrine was never part of the plan. It's corruptive, like government and the destruction caused by a local leader is more easily mitigated than that of a global one.

Personally, I don't know which bible half the denominations today teach from because it sure isn't the same ones I've been studying. We have liberty in areas because the bible is specifically non-specific. We have overseers (leaders of the local church) that are trained in doctrine and rightly understanding and imparting the word of God.

The bible isn't all that difficult to understand, but.....it does require study and thought. Taking things out of the context of the setting, time, author, circumstances, etc leads to false doctrine. We use the portions that are clear to make the portions that seem unclear a bit more understandable.

People have trouble with the old Testament, the levitical law, and the harshness often found there. It's the way it was, but the new covenant (in Christ) made many of the penalties for sin of that time moot. Christ became the ultimate sacrifice for them. The doctrines of the Old Testament are still valid and its teachings are profitable. To know where you are....you need to know where you've been.

All faiths of the world, except one, have a pathway of doing to 'earn' a right to be in the presence of God with nothing between you and He. The faith taught in the bible tells you that you can't earn it, because it will never be enough or for the right reasons. The only thing you can do in and of yourself is to accept that bridge has been built for you....really...for you. Your sin keeps you on one side and if you'll accept that the toll has been paid then you will be carried to the other side. It's an easily understandable economy. The other religons of the world have a sliding scale of some kind that is quite hard to pin down as to what is really required and you end up not knowing whether it was enough.

Because if this fallen world...our nature.....our rebellion, stuff happens. I don't like it. I certainly don't like the things I do, but don't want to do and end up doing anyway. God sees what we don't. He understands the beginning from the end as none of us can grasp. I pray my sons don't fall prey to something someday, but I can bet you that in my maturity I won't blame God if it happens. I might blame me....or pin it on someone else, but not God.

Ghandi - give me a break. He laid naked with teenage girls to prove to himself he could remain celebate. That's real profitable for those girls ain't it. Selfish arrogance. Martyrdom is sometimes the most extreme form of selfishness there is. Many of us knew or had a mom that would 'sacrifice' her time and energy or well-being 'for the family'. It drew her attention and sympathy and sometimes accolades from others for having made that sacrifice. Some sacrifice is required as a parent, but certainly not to the level some have led us to believe. Ghandi had some good teachings, but he was a hypocrite.

Find a church where the people are gregarious, caring, open, and faithful and DON'T join it. You'll screw it up. Everyone one of us has a hangup and a problem. Every church (again...local body of believers) has issues. Just because a church is growing and has a $150M new building and runs 8,000 members doesn't mean as a whole the place is on fire for God. Might be they are just sittin fat, dumb, and happy and Satan likes it that way.

Lucifer knows the bible as well as Christ. As the most beautiful angel, he had quite the prominent position in heaven. Being cast out of heaven after thinking he was as high as the Most High was the ultimate humiliation. He still thinks he can be as the Most High and despises God's love and grace towards us. We being sinners, Lucifer knows we aren't fit to be in God's presence and would just as soon see us perish. Instead he gets to watch as God's grace and mercy continually intervene. Our fallen world is a great arena for Satan to ply his wares and seek to keep us on the path to eternal death. To his dismay, God has a plan and makes himself known to each of us. Unfortunately our bent, our desire is not to follow God and not to reach out to Him. We're easily blinded to the truth.

thousands of years-worth of writings culiminating in one canon of scripture. All agree when taken in context. 40 different writers from all walks of life using their God-given talents to record as God directed. Part looking forward towards Christ and part looking back at Him. Over the centuries the word could have easily been perverted to eliminate Christ, show a need to gather wealth for the church, or allow for pleasurable immorality. It wasn't. It's preserved. It's teachings are profitable, insightfulm, and have stood the test of time. People muddy the water. People take things too far (well you can't take salvation too far). Accepting Christ isn't some silver bullet that one day makes you perfect. Sorry. Your soul might be safely guarded by Jesus, but your body is still in this world and is still a corrupt, sinful shell influenced by what we are exposed to.

Why do some seem to have more or even lead easier lives while others struggle or have little...? My answer is in a question - Is blessing about having stuff or having it easy....? Did you know that the word 'profitable' as it is in the bible is really 'shalom'....? Peace. It's got nothing to do with the perfect job, 2.3 kids, 2 cars, and no debt. It's also not holding yourself to celebacy (which for a man is a gift and not something he or an institution like catholicism can enforce adherence to) and a life of poverty. God has a purpose for each of us and it may be to be rich and healthy and provide for others. It's may be to be poor and be an example of strength and long-suffering. What comes my way is either teaching me something, showing me something, teaching someone else something, or showing someone else something. It doesn't always feel good, but I don't see anywhere from Genesis 1:1 to Rev 22:21 where it was ever promised I was going to be happy and feel good. Those things come from contentment.

God answers requests three ways - yes, no and not right now. Sometime what we ask for isn't beneficial to us. Sometimes we're not ready for it yet. Sometimes He gives us our desires to allow us to learn from it. Sometimes He gives us what we want in spite of ourselves.

You got a beef with the church (a building or organization) then take it up with them. Got a problem with the church (body of beleivers) then you need to check yourself out some first. None of us are blameless. Christ didn't offer or provide forgiveness to the unrepentant. He still loved and engaged them, but that grace was and is withheld from the unrepentant.

God is love. You've heard it time and time again. It's a jealous love. Its a lasting love. It's a fatherly love. It's a just love. He doesn't need your fellowshipand doesn't need your love. He wants it. So much so He allowed His Son to be condemned and sacrificed just for you. No really....for you. His love is abundant, abounding, and abiding. Look those three up and you'll almost have a grasp of what its like.

Of course....I could just be a crackpot wanting your money. Got any....? :)

A very good Christian response there.

[Mark O'Neal]

You guys have mentioned "free will" several times.

Let us assume that God exists, though I'd still like for one of you to prove it.

God created everything...he knows all that is, all that was, and all that ever shall be.

So he knew at the beginning what each of us would choose.

Which (a) makes this whole exercise silly; and (b) eliminates free will.

[Chevelle Rob]

You guys have mentioned "free will" several times.

Let us assume that God exists, though I'd still like for one of you to prove it.

God created everything...he knows all that is, all that was, and all that ever shall be.

So he knew at the beginning what each of us would choose.

Which (a) makes this whole exercise silly; and (b) eliminates free will.

using that argument there is no God cause we sure as hell have free will.

[SilverFox]

Lake Charles, eh. While in the AF I worked with a girl from near there. Sumpter or something like that. Richard was her last name. I could listen to her accent all day long and never get tired of it.

Probably Sulphur, La......bout 15 minutes east of here.......So you were stationed at Chennault AFB? Or she was just FROM here?

[GrahamHill]

You guys have mentioned "free will" several times.

Let us assume that God exists, though I'd still like for one of you to prove it.

God created everything...he knows all that is, all that was, and all that ever shall be.

So he knew at the beginning what each of us would choose.

Which (a) makes this whole exercise silly; and (b) eliminates free will.
Mark, in your example given He would know what we are going to do, but not choose for us what to do.

IOW He already know what I am going to choose to do tomorrow. I still get to choose though.


(a) makes this whole exercise silly;
he knew at the beginning what each of us would choose.
Seems simple to me.

[8URZ28]

Mark, in your example given He would know what we are going to do, but not choose for us what to do.

IOW He already know what I am going to choose to do tomorrow. I still get to choose though.




Seems simple to me.


He knew that bitch was gonna eat that fruit too. Why would a perfect God create imperfection just to have to later destroy everything on Earth because of it? He must really love to watch pain/suffering, because he could have prevented it all. Nice guy you kneel and pray to.:-KFC

[GrahamHill]

Are you saying he made her? (eat the apple)

[SouthernTrendKill]

It all comes down to what do you believe.

I believe I'll have another beer!

As far as who is right about religion.... Won't know that until I'm dead and neither will anybody else.

If God wanted us to know.....

He or She would be here telling us himself or herself and not letting all these uninformed assholes confuse the message.

[MisturG]

I can't comment as I'm narrow minded. For wide is gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction. Small is the gate and Narrow the road to life.

I will comment on this though. Not one of us is 'good' enough to stand before God.

Thank about that for a bit.
I am. And I think that is a pretty self rightous and ignorant statement. You know shit about me and even less about god. But you know we won't get along?

[8URZ28]

Are you saying he made her? (eat the apple)


Nope, I'm saying he must have known she was going to phuck up, so why the 6000 yr. old game of pain and suffering?? He must enjoy it!:toimonster:

[Monty Mikho]

I'll bite. What specifically is "evil" in the holy books? Your first post had some interesting points in it, many of which I agree with. This one is losing me, though. Can you point to any specific literature, since that's what you've been claiming helped open your eyes, that led you to the conclusion that the bible is evil? Who knows, we may have read some of the same stuff.

Do you not find some God flooding the land, killing people by fire, taking a man and hanging him on a cross, burning in eternal hell if your God doesn't agree with your life.. etc etc some type of evil? Religion also teaches the hate of other religions..

[Monty Mikho]

Microorganisms can never develop into humans,thus making your whole question a silly one.

:)

Is that a fact or only speculation on your part? I am willing to bet man can make a microorganism into a human. Will you believe that person is your new God if it can be done?

[Monty Mikho]

You seem all focused on child molesting priests. What about muslim rapists who, after raping young girls, persuade them that the only way to remove the shame of being raped by this trash, is to be a suicide bomber for allah. Want to duscuss that Monty?

We have enough people in America to convict the Muslims. I just find it odd they cannot convict themselves.

[Monty Mikho]

Take away the devil and there would be no churches left.


Alister Crowley!! :-D

[64Post]

[QUOTE]Do you not find some God flooding the land,

Allegedly flooded the earth. I think science can pretty well disprove that a flood of the biblical magnitude ever took place.

taking a man and hanging him on a cross

Reminds me of a favorite joke. Jesus walks into a motel, and throws a handful of nails up on the counter and asks the clerk, "Can you put me up for the night"? :)

Religion also teaches the hate of other religions.

Have a funny cartoon for that, just can't figure out how to post it. I'd ask Roy, but he only knows how to post anti-Obama shit.

[Mule]

We have enough people in America to convict the Muslims. I just find it odd they cannot convict themselves.

So you're OK with strapping dynamite to kids?

[Monty Mikho]

So you're OK with strapping dynamite to kids?


Again even Charles Manson thought Jeffery Duhmar was phucked up. If you ask Charles he will say he is phucked up but not as bas as Jeffery. If you would have asked Jeffery (when he was still alive) he would have said Charles was phucked up. But when you ask someone with an outside view who has no interest in either one of them. Your answer would be obvious. I am simply stating we have enough Charles supports here to convict Jeffery, but they are not ready to convict Charles. Hopefully that example gives you a little light. Im running out of paper and crayons trying to explain things to you.

[Mule]

Again even Charles Manson thought Jeffery Duhmar was phucked up. If you ask Charles he will say he is phucked up but not as bas as Jeffery. If you would have asked Jeffery (when he was still alive) he would have said Charles was phucked up. But when you ask someone with an outside view who has no interest in either one of them. Your answer would be obvious. I am simply stating we have enough Charles supports here to convict Jeffery, but they are not ready to convict Charles. Hopefully that example gives you a little light. Im running out of paper and crayons trying to explain things to you.

If both religions were currently espousing the killing of non believers or apostates, your comparison would be valid. Only islam currently espouses killing. Your comparison is therefore, not valid.

[Monty Mikho]

"In God We Trust" = 43,000+ innocent Iraqi people killed since our 2nd invasion!!

That number climbs everyday!!

But I guess if a US President reigns terror on innocent lives, its just cause. Yet if a Muslim does it, it's murder.

[Mule]

"In God We Trust" = 43,000+ innocent Iraqi people killed since our 2nd invasion!!

That number climbs everyday!!

But I guess if a US President reigns terror on innocent lives, its just cause. Yet if a Muslim does it, it's murder.

How the fuck do you know they were innocent? They were just trying to kill Americans, right?

[Monty Mikho]

How the fuck do you know they were innocent? They were just trying to kill Americans, right?

Only if you allow yourself to believe that.

How do you know the people in the twin towers were innocent? The terrorists who crashed planes into them said they were all guilty. Who are you to say they were wrong?

[I'm Slow]

"In God We Trust" = 43,000+ innocent Iraqi people killed since our 2nd invasion!!

That number climbs everyday!!

But I guess if a US President reigns terror on innocent lives, its just cause. Yet if a Muslim does it, it's murder.

Surely you're too smart to believe this. If I say "In Monty We Trust" then go shoot up a schoolhouse, it is not a reflection upon you. It was a misguided action in your name. There is a clear logical difference here. Besides, the Iraq war was never done in the name of religion. The soldiers do not shout "In God we Trust" before dropping bombs, and the bible never prompts such action. Islam, properly understood, does encourage such action. You and others continue to make the same fallacious argument, so I will reiterate... the misapplication of a philosophy does not negate the philosophy.

[Monty Mikho]

Surely you're too smart to believe this. If I say "In Monty We Trust" then go shoot up a schoolhouse, it is not a reflection upon you. It was a misguided action in your name. There is a clear logical difference here. Besides, the Iraq war was never done in the name of religion. The soldiers do not shout "In God we Trust" before dropping bombs, and the bible never prompts such action. Islam, properly understood, does encourage such action. You and others continue to make the same fallacious argument, so I will reiterate... the misapplication of a philosophy does not negate the philosophy.

I play neither side

[R/T kota]

How the fuck do you know they were innocent? They were just trying to kill Americans, right?
Would they still be trying to kill the Americans if the Americans were not there?

[GrahamHill]

"In God We Trust" = 43,000+ innocent Iraqi people killed since our 2nd invasion!!

That number climbs everyday!!

But I guess if a US President reigns terror on innocent lives, its just cause. Yet if a Muslim does it, it's murder.
Ah so Iraq is just a divine Christian war? lol

Your a hoot man..

[Monty Mikho]

Would they still be trying to kill the Americans if the Americans were not there?


One must rewind to 1991 when 10's of thousands were putting there hands up and weapons down begging for saviour from the US troops. After all we are the good guys, right? Had they really wanted Americans dead. They were in a better positions then than they are now. The sad part is we gave all those who surrendered back to Saddam. Anyone wanna guess what happened to them guys?

[Monty Mikho]

Ah so Iraq is just a divine Christian war? lol

Your a hoot man..

It's about oil and what I had said from the start of this war!! I was called crazy back then to. But it is becoming more and more evident as time passes.

I am merely stating good Christians kill for their own reasons as well. This reason happens to be oil and not terror. If it was a war on terror. Why are the heroin fields in Afghanistan and Pakistan still being run but the biggest terrorist groups in the world? Why have we not bombed any of them fields? We know for a fact that is their main source for income..

[GrahamHill]

Just because a guy kills someone (or curses or lusts on a woman or whatever) doesn't change the doctrine of Christianity Monty.

[Jeremy J]

Besides, the Iraq war was never done in the name of religion. The soldiers do not shout "In God we Trust" before dropping bombs, and the bible never prompts such action.

No, they just alienate their fellow soldiers who don't believe they should think "In god we Trust".

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/07/08/atheist.soldier/

[Jeremy J]

I don't really think any of this matters. HAVE WE BEEN ATTACKED SINCE 9/11?? Yeehaw, git r done! Enough said.http://img117.exs.cx/img117/9585/q9crolleyes.gif

[Monty Mikho]

Just because a guy kills someone (or curses or lusts on a woman or whatever) doesn't change the doctrine of Christianity Monty.


It the same goes for the Muslims. That is the whole point of my argument.

[8URZ28]

Mark, in your example given He would know what we are going to do, but not choose for us what to do.

IOW He already know what I am going to choose to do tomorrow. I still get to choose though.




Seems simple to me.




Soooooo, which is it? Is God an all powerful, all knowing being and he created imperfection for his own sick amusement OR He's not a perfect, all powerful, all knowing being, and your religion is based on crap??

[Mule]

Only if you allow yourself to believe that.

How do you know the people in the twin towers were innocent? The terrorists who crashed planes into them said they were all guilty. Who are you to say they were wrong?

You need to send your brain out for overhaul. Guilty? Guilty of what? Tell me right now & we may be able to come to the root of our disagreement, had the people in the towers done something to bin laden's peace lovers, for which they deserved to be killed?

[8URZ28]

You need to send your brain out for overhaul. Guilty? Guilty of what? Tell me right now & we may be able to come to the root of our disagreement, had the people in the towers done something to bin laden's peace lovers, for which they deserved to be killed?


God must have wanted them all dead or else he would have prevented it... right?

[Mule]

Would they still be trying to kill the Americans if the Americans were not there?

Are you too young to remember the first gulf war?

[Mule]

One must rewind to 1991 when 10's of thousands were putting there hands up and weapons down begging for saviour from the US troops. After all we are the good guys, right? Had they really wanted Americans dead. They were in a better positions then than they are now. The sad part is we gave all those who surrendered back to Saddam. Anyone wanna guess what happened to them guys?

I'm assuming nothing, 'cause you keep telling me what great guys there are over there in the ME.

[Mule]

It's about oil and what I had said from the start of this war!! I was called crazy back then to. But it is becoming more and more evident as time passes.

I am merely stating good Christians kill for their own reasons as well. This reason happens to be oil and not terror. If it was a war on terror. Why are the heroin fields in Afghanistan and Pakistan still being run but the biggest terrorist groups in the world? Why have we not bombed any of them fields? We know for a fact that is their main source for income..

Show me your proof that it's about oil. So name this "biggest terrorist group" that's running the "heroin fields." You talk like you're on heroin!

[Mule]

It the same goes for the Muslims. That is the whole point of my argument.

Not so much. Islam became a murderous organization the day big mo "terrorized" the caravan from Mecca, and remains one today. Murder, kidnapping and thievery, it's the muslim way!

[Chuck L.]

popcorn, peanuts, Oh dang, wrong section.

No beer until after 12pm EST.

[R/T kota]

Are you too young to remember the first gulf war?

No I remember it well and also remember that it was over and did not drag on for years.
Whats your point?

[Mule]

It ended with a cease fire agreement that Saddaam violated daily.

[Chevelle Rob]

You need to send your brain out for overhaul. Guilty? Guilty of what? Tell me right now & we may be able to come to the root of our disagreement, had the people in the towers done something to bin laden's peace lovers, for which they deserved to be killed?

The twin towers were seen as a monument to American capatilism and hegemony.

[Monty Mikho]

You need to send your brain out for overhaul. Guilty? Guilty of what? Tell me right now & we may be able to come to the root of our disagreement, had the people in the towers done something to bin laden's peace lovers, for which they deserved to be killed?

Did the innocent who died in Iraq do anything to America? You say we are not going after the innocent. You claim we are only going after the bad guys, which I agree with. But we know for a fact the innocent get killed anytime there is a war. The attacks on the twin towers by the terrorists were no different. Im sure there was a Muslim or a few they were not targeting, yet died in the towers that day. So please let me know what the difference is from one another's shoes.. Not by what you believe is right or wrong. The only "Muslims" and "Christians" who hate one another are those who are have no right to call themselves religious by any standard!!!

[Monty Mikho]

I'm assuming nothing, 'cause you keep telling me what great guys there are over there in the ME.


Please show me where I have stated where everyone in the middle east are perfect or nice. I believe their record of crooks, killers are haters are much like ours. Only difference is America holds a higher number of each in America. They are not perfect and neither are we. So stop spreading this Muslim hate bullshit and get to the root of the problem.

[Monty Mikho]

Not so much. Islam became a murderous organization the day big mo "terrorized" the caravan from Mecca, and remains one today. Murder, kidnapping and thievery, it's the muslim way!


I will ask again. Who killed Jesus? Was it the Muslims?

[I'm Slow]

Did the innocent who died in Iraq do anything to America? You say we are not going after the innocent. You claim we are only going after the bad guys, which I agree with. But we know for a fact the innocent get killed anytime there is a war. The attacks on the twin towers by the terrorists were no different. Im sure there was a Muslim or a few they were not targeting, yet died in the towers that day. So please let me know what the difference is from one another's shoes.. Not by what you believe is right or wrong. The only "Muslims" and "Christians" who hate one another are those who are have no right to call themselves religious by any standard!!!

Are you arguing for cultural relativism here?

[John Cunningham]

There is hope for Monty>.......The Apostle Paul may give us a hint..

[Chevelle Rob]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_relativism

[Chevelle Rob]

The concept of culture, like any other piece of knowledge, can be abused and misinterpreted. Some fear that the principle of cultural relativity will weaken morality. "If the Bugabuga do it why can't we? It's all relative anyway." But this is exactly what cultural relativity does not mean. The principle of cultural relativity does not mean that because the members of some savage tribe are allowed to behave in a certain way that this fact gives intellectual warrant for such behavior in all groups. Cultural relativity means, on the contrary, that the appropriateness of any positive or negative custom must be evaluated with regard to how this habit fits with other group habits. Having several wives makes economic sense among herders, not among hunters. While breeding a healthy scepticism as to the eternity of any value prized by a particular people, anthropology does not as a matter of theory deny the existence of moral absolutes. Rather, the use of the comparative method provides a scientific means of discovering such absolutes. If all surviving societies have found it necessary to impose some of the same restrictions upon the behavior of their members, this makes a strong argument that these aspects of the moral code are indispensable.

[jim sciortino]

I would love to chime in, but I must respect Monty's request for narrow minded people to please keep out.

Only because he said please.

[Mule]

Did the innocent who died in Iraq do anything to America? You say we are not going after the innocent. You claim we are only going after the bad guys, which I agree with. But we know for a fact the innocent get killed anytime there is a war. The attacks on the twin towers by the terrorists were no different. Im sure there was a Muslim or a few they were not targeting, yet died in the towers that day. So please let me know what the difference is from one another's shoes.. Not by what you believe is right or wrong. The only "Muslims" and "Christians" who hate one another are those who are have no right to call themselves religious by any standard!!!

What about the innocents in Japan & Germany? It's called WAR. One of the reasons you're supposed to avoid it is because your people get killed. Is this the first time you're hearing this? Look, for everybody out here too stupid to get it, I'll explain. We are in Iraq because one the muslims showed how fiendishly murderous they were willing to be, we realized we needed a base nearby in case we needed to kill a bunch of 'em. Saddam kept sticking his head up, so he got hit with the tomato.

[Mule]

I will ask again. Who killed Jesus? Was it the Muslims?

You seem to be good at math, so we'll try it like this. Jesus was dead for over 600 years when mo began islam. Is this question hard for you?

[Mule]

Please show me where I have stated where everyone in the middle east are perfect or nice. I believe their record of crooks, killers are haters are much like ours. Only difference is America holds a higher number of each in America. They are not perfect and neither are we. So stop spreading this Muslim hate bullshit and get to the root of the problem.

Well show me some genocide, institutionalized rape & slavery in the US an then your attempt to make this point may make you look like a little less of a fool.

[Shelton_Barrs]

The only "Muslims" and "Christians" who hate one another are those who are have no right to call themselves religious by any standard!!!



Couldnt agree with you more Monty.....

[Shelton_Barrs]

I would love to chime in, but I must respect Monty's request for narrow minded people to please keep out.

Only because he said please.

Your starting to be nice on a reguar basis.....you feeling okay?











:smt082

[Shelton_Barrs]

Well show me some genocide, institutionalized rape & slavery in the US an then your attempt to make this point may make you look like a little less of a fool.

What time frame? Those acts are all apart of our history......

[Monty Mikho]

You seem to be good at math, so we'll try it like this. Jesus was dead for over 600 years when mo began islam. Is this question hard for you?


Well who was your hero... I mean God killed by?

[Monty Mikho]

Couldnt agree with you more Monty.....


The whole basis of most my arguments is it seems no matter what religion it is. They will not talk out against their own when someone claims they are doing it under such name or claim that religion for the wrong reasons. The terrorists claim to be Muslim but they are no where near anything the book describes them to be. The Catholics claim to be Catholics even though they raped little children. Prisoners claim to be saved by God just to get a free ticket out of jail. Honestly I think its pathetic. It reminds me of the guys who label themselves engineers yet they have no degree stating such.. Yet their business card says so, so it must mean they are... If one is gonna call himself the part. The least he/she can do is practice what they preach or follow the book they worship...

[Monty Mikho]

Well show me some genocide, institutionalized rape & slavery in the US an then your attempt to make this point may make you look like a little less of a fool.


The Muslims are 600 years younger than the Christians. Can I use Christian history from 600 years ago and compare the two religions?

[I'm Slow]

The whole basis of most my arguments is it seems no matter what religion it is. They will not talk out against their own when someone claims they are doing it under such name or claim that religion for the wrong reasons. The terrorists claim to be Muslim but they are no where near anything the book describes them to be. The Catholics claim to be Catholics even though they raped little children. Prisoners claim to be saved by God just to get a free ticket out of jail. Honestly I think its pathetic. It reminds me of the guys who label themselves engineers yet they have no degree stating such.. Yet their business card says so, so it must mean they are... If one is gonna call himself the part. The least he/she can do is practice what they preach or follow the book they worship...

I agree with this completely.

[SouthernTrendKill]

I've read most of this thread and I'm still not sure "WHO IS RIGHT".

I'm still looking for the answer.... Anybody?

[Monty Mikho]

I've read most of this thread and I'm still not sure "WHO IS RIGHT".

I'm still looking for the answer.... Anybody?

With God (or higher power) there are no rights or wrongs, just opinions. I guess we will all one day find out or just die without knowing anything after. The only thing that matters is what people do on this planet when they are alive. Doing the right thing needs no religion or faith. All it needs is a little common sense. Something many lack and the reason they need a handbook they obviously cannot follow.

[SouthernTrendKill]

With God (or higher power) there are no rights or wrongs, just opinions. I guess we will all one day find out or just die without knowing anything after. The only thing that matters is what people do on this planet when they are alive. Doing the right thing needs no religion or faith. All it needs is a little common sense. Something many lack and the reason they need a handbook they obviously cannot follow.

I've found the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States to be the best example of how Man's laws could allow freedom of choice in everything that matters.

Of course it took about 10 years for the Gov. to violate every aspect of both Founding Documents.

[unholy1]

Religion itself is benign. The exercise of religion isn't.

No God, No war
Know God, Know War

[Monty Mikho]

I've found the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States to be the best example of how Man's laws could allow freedom of choice in everything that matters.

Of course it took about 10 years for the Gov. to violate every aspect of both Founding Documents.


:rock::rock::rock::rock:

[Rodz]

God must have wanted them all dead or else he would have prevented it... right?

You don't really expect an answer do you? The bible dudes will avoid that type of question because it confuses them. Or maybe, "THE DEVIL MADE ME DO IT" :smt102

[Mule]

The Muslims are 600 years younger than the Christians. Can I use Christian history from 600 years ago and compare the two religions?

No you cant. Don't talk about it, do it!

[Mule]

Well who was your hero... I mean God killed by?

Don't you know? What make you think Jesus is my hero? Imagining again?

[Mule]

The whole basis of most my arguments is it seems no matter what religion it is. They will not talk out against their own when someone claims they are doing it under such name or claim that religion for the wrong reasons. The terrorists claim to be Muslim but they are no where near anything the book describes them to be. The Catholics claim to be Catholics even though they raped little children. Prisoners claim to be saved by God just to get a free ticket out of jail. Honestly I think its pathetic. It reminds me of the guys who label themselves engineers yet they have no degree stating such.. Yet their business card says so, so it must mean they are... If one is gonna call himself the part. The least he/she can do is practice what they preach or follow the book they worship...

While this sounds good, it's incorrect. Mo had his boys killing, raping & robbing almost immediately. Look up temporary marriages.

[dougg01]

Probably Sulphur, La......bout 15 minutes east of here.......So you were stationed at Chennault AFB? Or she was just FROM here?

Sulphur is it. She was stationed with me at Maxwell AFB in Montgomery 88-92 and she got out of the service.

[dougg01]

The whole basis of most my arguments is it seems no matter what religion it is..... If one is gonna call himself the part. The least he/she can do is practice what they preach or follow the book they worship...

Is that in a nutshell Monty...? Really...? Hypocrisy...? That's your beef....?

I'm just trying to understand your hostility. You (and some others I'm not going to deal with right now) seem to have a chip on the shoulder about Christianity or more specifically, the flawed people who attempt to adhere to it.

For the sake of keeping it simple (I need to, I'm a knuckle-dragging idiot) let's contain the argument to only contrasting doctrine and actions of two groups - muslims and Christians. To further define our subject group, lets take both samples from the right-wing of each faith. Centrists are rarely controversial and generally take a more mild-mannered approach to their beliefs and application of doctrine. This comprises the bulk of any faith system (be it atheistic, Jehovah, or Allah). These people are largely silent and are problem not the groups you seem to have a problem with.

Here are a few:

Strictest adherence to Islam, teachings and life of Mohammad -
drown your daughter if she is caught alone with a man outside her immediate family (does not need to be sexual)
kill the infadel (yes, it really does say that)
harbour boys to use for sexual release (concubines for sodomy)
treat your wife as a second-class citizen (and have no legal rights)
care for family members (young and old)

Strictest adherence to Christianity and the life of Jesus -
Abstain from sexual impurity (fornication, sodomy, homosexuality, affairs)
Love your enemy
treat your wife as you would treat yourself (man and woman have seperate roles)
care for family members (young and old)

Now, what people DO differs greatly from what they are taught/told to do by the clery or religous doctrine.

Now take you...or me...for instance. We were told not to speed.....but we do. Is the measuring stick relative and that I'm better and can act more pious if I don't speed by as much as you do...? Where is the line.....5 over, 10 over, 1mph over....?

When am I good...? You claim to use your own compass to determine what is right or wrong and you seem fairly pleased with your progress. Really...?

I've been around 40 years now and I see myself better now than I ever have. A realistic view (or as close as I can being this near to the source :) ). I've been following this 'Christianity thing for a while now (teens). I've been trying to adhere as best I can for over a dozen or so years and I am a MISERABLE FAILURE at it. I'd rather not list all the crap I've done. It's significant yet, I don't drink, do drugs, cheat on taxes, beat my kids, steal, watch porn, haven't killed anyone, etc. I'm no better than you or anyone else here.

To be honest....sometimes I feel a little pious about what I've NOT done. An honest appraisal done regularly keeps me grounded. There is a lot I've not done....stuff I should and can be doing and don't. There's also a lot I have done like fighting back against (what I see as) corrupt powers in my workplace, avoiding family, and shirking some responsibilities.

So, I'm a bad Christian and I consider myself a fundamentalist (not legalist.....there IS a difference). I get up another day and try again.

What does it take to be a bad fundamentalist Muslim....? Treat your wife with respect and honor...? Not engage with the harem of little boys...? Understand that my daughter was raped and leave the country verses murdering her...? Accept aid from the infadel and open dialogue for agreeing to disagree, peacefully...?

I'd be a real crappy muslim.

Ishmael and Isaac are forever seperated and will forever fight and the two doctrines couldn't be more different.

Mankind, as a whole, is bent on getting what they want the way they want it as soon as they want it and it will always resort to means not considered moral. It's true of me....and it's true of you. So you are beating people up for acting like.....people.

Accepting Christianity is NOT a silver bullet for stopping this behavoir.

I'm not going to discuss denominationalism, relativity, or origins here. This was specifically about religon and why we believe as we do.

Monty's initial post showed some curiosity, but that appears (I could be wrong) to have been a ruse because I'd think he already had his mind made up and used it as an opportunity to bash Christianity and/or faiths in general.

So...what's this about the rudder you use to steer you towards doing what's right or wrong...? Huh.... Our thoughts differ from yours (you said it was all a matter of opinion anyway), but it's a good time to slap us like red-headed stepchildren.....right...? I'm clueless as to my condition and the appearance of those who claim to share my faith so we needed a public lashing to make it better...?

I think, perhaps, your ship is a bit off course there captain.:cool:

Me....I'm screwing up by even being here and more so by engaging in this debate which most-likely will go no where. If that's the worst thing I do all day......I'll feel relieved when I put my head to the pillow this evening.

Have a good day.

[8URZ28]

You don't really expect an answer do you? The bible dudes will avoid that type of question because it confuses them. Or maybe, "THE DEVIL MADE ME DO IT" :smt102


I thought one of the smarter ones would take a crack at it.:smt102 Maybe even this one:

"He knew that bitch was gonna eat that fruit too. Why would a perfect God create imperfection just to have to later destroy everything on Earth because of it? He must really love to watch pain/suffering, because he could have prevented it all. Nice guy you kneel and pray to."

:)

[8URZ28]

Is that in a nutshell Monty...? Really...? Hypocrisy...? That's your beef....?

I'm just trying to understand your hostility. You (and some others I'm not going to deal with right now) seem to have a chip on the shoulder about Christianity or more specifically, the flawed people who attempt to adhere to it.

For the sake of keeping it simple (I need to, I'm a knuckle-dragging idiot) let's contain the argument to only contrasting doctrine and actions of two groups - muslims and Christians. To further define our subject group, lets take both samples from the right-wing of each faith. Centrists are rarely controversial and generally take a more mild-mannered approach to their beliefs and application of doctrine. This comprises the bulk of any faith system (be it atheistic, Jehovah, or Allah). These people are largely silent and are problem not the groups you seem to have a problem with.

Here are a few:

Strictest adherence to Islam, teachings and life of Mohammad -
drown your daughter if she is caught alone with a man outside her immediate family (does not need to be sexual)
kill the infadel (yes, it really does say that)
harbour boys to use for sexual release (concubines for sodomy)
treat your wife as a second-class citizen (and have no legal rights)
care for family members (young and old)

Strictest adherence to Christianity and the life of Jesus -
Abstain from sexual impurity (fornication, sodomy, homosexuality, affairs)
Love your enemy
treat your wife as you would treat yourself (man and woman have seperate roles)
care for family members (young and old)

Now, what people DO differs greatly from what they are taught/told to do by the clery or religous doctrine.

Now take you...or me...for instance. We were told not to speed.....but we do. Is the measuring stick relative and that I'm better and can act more pious if I don't speed by as much as you do...? Where is the line.....5 over, 10 over, 1mph over....?

When am I good...? You claim to use your own compass to determine what is right or wrong and you seem fairly pleased with your progress. Really...?

I've been around 40 years now and I see myself better now than I ever have. A realistic view (or as close as I can being this near to the source :) ). I've been following this 'Christianity thing for a while now (teens). I've been trying to adhere as best I can for over a dozen or so years and I am a MISERABLE FAILURE at it. I'd rather not list all the crap I've done. It's significant yet, I don't drink, do drugs, cheat on taxes, beat my kids, steal, watch porn, haven't killed anyone, etc. I'm no better than you or anyone else here.

To be honest....sometimes I feel a little pious about what I've NOT done. An honest appraisal done regularly keeps me grounded. There is a lot I've not done....stuff I should and can be doing and don't. There's also a lot I have done like fighting back against (what I see as) corrupt powers in my workplace, avoiding family, and shirking some responsibilities.

So, I'm a bad Christian and I consider myself a fundamentalist (not legalist.....there IS a difference). I get up another day and try again.

What does it take to be a bad fundamentalist Muslim....? Treat your wife with respect and honor...? Not engage with the harem of little boys...? Understand that my daughter was raped and leave the country verses murdering her...? Accept aid from the infadel and open dialogue for agreeing to disagree, peacefully...?

I'd be a real crappy muslim.

Ishmael and Isaac are forever seperated and will forever fight and the two doctrines couldn't be more different.

Mankind, as a whole, is bent on getting what they want the way they want it as soon as they want it and it will always resort to means not considered moral. It's true of me....and it's true of you. So you are beating people up for acting like.....people.

Accepting Christianity is NOT a silver bullet for stopping this behavoir.

I'm not going to discuss denominationalism, relativity, or origins here. This was specifically about religon and why we believe as we do.

Monty's initial post showed some curiosity, but that appears (I could be wrong) to have been a ruse because I'd think he already had his mind made up and used it as an opportunity to bash Christianity and/or faiths in general.

So...what's this about the rudder you use to steer you towards doing what's right or wrong...? Huh.... Our thoughts differ from yours (you said it was all a matter of opinion anyway), but it's a good time to slap us like red-headed stepchildren.....right...? I'm clueless as to my condition and the appearance of those who claim to share my faith so we needed a public lashing to make it better...?

I think, perhaps, your ship is a bit off course there captain.:cool:

Me....I'm screwing up by even being here and more so by engaging in this debate which most-likely will go no where. If that's the worst thing I do all day......I'll feel relieved when I put my head to the pillow this evening.

Have a good day.


I think you sugar coated this just :smt081a little.

[dougg01]

I think you sugar coated this just :smt081a little.

really...? I'll bite mr. scholar, New or Old economy, New or Old covenant....? Hmmmm.

Islam doesn't have a new economy...? No age of grace....?

That's not sugar coat of the covenant with Christ. Simplistic and not all-encompassing, but not sugar-coated. I was paralelling the points and no further.

BTW. The Old economy.....muslims subscribe to as well. They are fully in agreement with the Moasic texts along with the Jews. At Ishmael and Isaac they part ways.

[Mule]

Wonderment of islam:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWGA8i6scYY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TH9-gSbVeRs&feature=related

[dougg01]

I thought one of the smarter ones would take a crack at it.:smt102 Maybe even this one:

"He knew that bitch was gonna eat that fruit too. Why would a perfect God create imperfection just to have to later destroy everything on Earth because of it? He must really love to watch pain/suffering, because he could have prevented it all. Nice guy you kneel and pray to."

:)

I'm not 'one of the smarter ones', but can I take a crack at it....

The theology of original sin and adamic nature is a long one.

Why was the fruit there....?

Let's not confuse pre-destination with fore-knowledge. On