Why an LSx platform?

[LSX-King]

Why is the LSx platform being billed as some great thing?

Seems like the LSx engines are trying to re-invent the wheel.

Can anyone tell me what is better about an LSx engine than a traditional Gen I engine?

[Collinsautomotive]

in what regard exactly would you like to take this argument ? Both engine platforms have alot to offer.


Why is the LSx platform being billed as some great thing?

Seems like the LSx engines are trying to re-invent the wheel.

Can anyone tell me what is better about an LSx engine than a traditional Gen I engine?

[Chris Uratchko]

Some good questions forsure.

What does the lsx offer that the first generation engine does not?

[Greg2]

15° heads with symmetrical intake ports for one thing. As opposed to 23° heads with siamesed intake ports on the older SBC.

[Scott McMullen]

It also Seems They Don't leak oil as Much

[quickwrench]

Let's see...

- Windowed main webbing
- Crossbolted mains
- Stronger block (6.0L)
- Symmetrical intake & exhaust ports
- Much-improved oiling
- Improved valvetrain angles
- OE cylinder head selection available at freakishly reasonable prices.
- OE Fuel & Ignition systems scalable

Depends on what you call "improvement"...If you just look at the block and heads, traditional SBC vs LSx engines both do well. But a junkyard LS engine is an untouchable platform for the average guy looking to build a 500-700HP engine that will do it all...idle, drive, WOT, MPG, etc.

[Suicidal Racing]

look at the L92 heads also now..u can get a set brand new with 650 lift springs for 1000-1100$ thats a 260cc runner a 2.16 int and 1.59 exh valve

they flow well over 315cfm and the exh is like 205cfm..do some poer cleaning and u got a killer head for the cost of some of your time and the price

[TTDolson]

Not to mention,

Weight is 100+ pound advantage.
Parasitic loss is 30-40% better
Ease of assembly and maintenance

[JimmiSizzzle]

Cost per reliable horsepower.

[GueSS Who ?]

A maxed out SBC and a maxed out LS1 is probably not all the different.....But SBC has had alot of time to get all figured out. LS1 people are just now getting big hp numbers.

[JL ws-6]

Alot of what is better about the lsx platform, is the fact that you can pretty easily build a 500 rwhp setup that will be daily drivable with stock like drivability, whereas the sbc's gonna start getting a little cranky there.

The lsx platform has really just started to come alive, with the lsx block now out you can get to 1000 hp and not have the head lifting problems that were an issue with the older stuff, the aftermarket is really taking off with all the available heads and whatnot, and the prices on alot of it is getting better as well.

Don't get me wrong, old SBC stuff, with all the r&d that's gone into it over the years still makes it a platform that you can build I think a little farther then you can with an lsx, but give it some more time, when the aftermarket finally gets to building a more race orientated block with smaller water jeckets, you will see more 1500+ hp lsx builds showing up. The turbo lxs guys are getting down into the mid 7's now with them, nitrous cars have been as fast as 8.2x's

Get a good aftermarket casting, or billet block done right, and the platform will surpass the old sbc to the point it will be obsolete. Lsx has ben around since 1997, sbc's got 40+ years of r&d.... and look at where the 2 are right now.

[SLED28]

A maxed out SBC and a maxed out LS1 is probably not all the different.....But SBC has had alot of time to get all figured out. LS1 people are just now getting big hp numbers.

A LS1 went 6's 5 years ago now ;)

[InTheRed]

A LS1 went 6's 5 years ago now ;)

EXACTLY!!! Why do people keep calling them "new"? When you're going for 2000+hp like me and alot of other SB guys on this board, it doesn't matter much anymore. You want the best design out there. LSX's don't have alot of choices when it comes to monster heads, but there are a few. Ford stuff is cheaper, and more widely used, as well as SBC's... They're all just an air pump at this point.

[elcato]

15° heads with symmetrical intake ports for one thing. As opposed to 23° heads with siamesed intake ports on the older SBC.

What about the placement of the head bolts on an LSX block??? Isn't it a lot better than LS1/????

[quickwrench]

The "placement" is the same, but the LSx block has six bolts per cylinder. (One added above and below each cylinder.)

[Radialturbodude]

LS motors have a taller deck so longer rods and more stroke can be used.Pan and cover gaskets can be reused,large core cams that dont flex. Even with large strokes no clearance issues,cam can be changed without removing intake. just to name a few

[elcato]

The "placement" is the same, but the LSx block has six bolts per cylinder. (One added above and below each cylinder.)

Placement of the head bolts cannot be the Same if there are two extras!!!
This is what makes the LSX a better block for higher compression...

[Billyman]

Placement is exactly the same. There are just two added per cylinder (as noted above).

Standard LS1 heads and heads designed for specifically for the LSX block will both bolt on just fine. Using the added bolt holes are optional.

[racer7088]

Why is the LSx platform being billed as some great thing?

Seems like the LSx engines are trying to re-invent the wheel.

Can anyone tell me what is better about an LSx engine than a traditional Gen I engine?

Pros - Cam is higher and much larger in diameter than Gen 1. OEM LSx heads are much better than OEM Gen 1 heads by far. Engine can be made larger much easier than Gen 1. Engine in aluminum form much lighter than Gen 1.

Cons - OEM oiling system not as good as Gen1 with lots of windage and no dedicated oiling to mains and rods. Gen 1 is better here for sure. Also Gen 1 still has more all out real race parts right now but that is slowly changing.

Certainly there much more than this but it's too late to think about it. I know building anything very big in the Gen 1 SBC truly sucks compared to the Ford SB or the LSx. Just not enough room.

[BAD]

Lsx is a better base to start with.

[Pro Stock John]

The LSx Gen III and IV family of engines have been out since 1997, and the engine is wildly popular ever since guys started running 10's with heads cam and weight reduction.

[Orangepeeler]

There are several people who have been 10's with cam only cars and weight reduction. I don't know of any other sbc platform that will do that.

[TwoFast4Lv]

It IS the future and that is not going to change. The LS9 is WELL over 600HP off the show room floor with full factory warranty.

We warned you Ford boys our blower was coming :D

[JUICED96Z]

For me I would go with a LSX based engine before I went gen 1 SBC but I went from a LT1 to a BBC and will never ever go back to a SBC of any kind or any small block. I am hooked.

Id run a LS9 vette any day of the week with my OLD motor.... :D

When it comes to big power you can do with with any engine, in the end they are all air pumps and you jus thave to find a way to get as much air and fuel in and out as fast as possible.

http://a456.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/71/l_e7337cb9996d8b7374bc97a4f194cac7.jpg

[Mr.Martystone]

For me I would go with a LSX based engine before I went gen 1 SBC but I went from a LT1 to a BBC and will never ever go back to a SBC of any kind or any small block. I am hooked.

Id run a LS9 vette any day of the week with my OLD motor.... :D

When it comes to big power you can do with with any engine, in the end they are all air pumps and you jus thave to find a way to get as much air and fuel in and out as fast as possible.

http://a456.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/71/l_e7337cb9996d8b7374bc97a4f194cac7.jpg

If your car EVER runs the number I'll be impressed. Till then I'm just another skeptic.

[Robert1320]

If your car EVER runs the number I'll be impressed. Till then I'm just another skeptic.


That gona leave a mark!

[Mr.Martystone]

That gona leave a mark!

I tend to ruffle feathers:axe:

[Worm Boy]

Why is the LSx platform being billed as some great thing?

Seems like the LSx engines are trying to re-invent the wheel.

Can anyone tell me what is better about an LSx engine than a traditional Gen I engine?



Its hard to beat the new technology with cnc aftermarket heads flowing well over 330cfm out the box for your basic street car. I truly believe the new LSX platform will be the racers choice over the old sbc motors in the next few years. We only have a handful of passes on our setup and have already been a best of 7.57 through the 1/4 mile on stock suspension and True 10.5in tires with the 106mm turbo. This motor is making right at 2000hp and we have not pushed a single drop of water. We checked a few bearings and everything still looks new. We have just begun testing with the 114mm turbo which should put us around the 2500hp marker, so we will see just how much power these new LSX blocks can hold.:yawinkle:


Steven Fereday
Late Model Racecraft
713-466-9900
Latemodelracecraft.com

[Steve Turley]

Plus if you have an Ls1 you'll be cool like me and wormboy!!:-D

[qwiknotch]

what if you have an LS2, is that one step above the Turley and wormboy coolness?

[JUICED96Z]

If your car EVER runs the number I'll be impressed. Till then I'm just another skeptic.


WOW, someones paintes are a little to tight.

Im hoping you know what my car ran on the old motor to have the balls to say that :).

If you do, keep in mind that was on one stage... and a small one at that. That motor was to slow, going wtih something a little better.............. maybe 5 more hp...........

And for the record I was not bashing the LS motors. If I was to stick with small blocks its what I would have right now.

[BAD]

Its hard to beat the new technology with cnc aftermarket heads flowing well over 330cfm out the box for your basic street car. I truly believe the new LSX platform will be the racers choice over the old sbc motors in the next few years. We only have a handful of passes on our setup and have already been a best of 7.57 through the 1/4 mile on stock suspension and True 10.5in tires with the 106mm turbo. This motor is making right at 2000hp and we have not pushed a single drop of water. We checked a few bearings and everything still looks new. We have just begun testing with the 114mm turbo which should put us around the 2500hp marker, so we will see just how much power these new LSX blocks can hold.:yawinkle:


Steven Fereday
Late Model Racecraft
713-466-9900
Latemodelracecraft.com


hey steve let me know how that 114 turn out, I `m very intrested in that turbo setup.

[Robert1320]

The LSX is the new bad boy small block. The 6 bolt block is awsome.

http://images.gmhightechperformance.com/tech/0702gm_03_z+lsx+.jpg

[Frank02L]

When you can go into the local GM stealership and get a cylinder head that flows over 300 outta the box at 600 lift for $175 bare... That draws some extra attention.

[BAD]

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a272/AMPMAL/1-25-08006.jpg

[Mr.Martystone]

WOW, someones paintes are a little to tight.

Im hoping you know what my car ran on the old motor to have the balls to say that :).

If you do, keep in mind that was on one stage... and a small one at that. That motor was to slow, going wtih something a little better.............. maybe 5 more hp...........

And for the record I was not bashing the LS motors. If I was to stick with small blocks its what I would have right now.

A big block car on a real tire and spray...I don't know exactly what it ran but it only trapped 136mph. Can't be good for much more than high-mid nines.

Marty

[JUICED96Z]

A big block car on a real tire and spray...I don't know exactly what it ran but it only trapped 136mph. Can't be good for much more than high-mid nines.

Marty

With a 150 shot, still had a 300 on the second stage and those runs were not sprayed untill the 60 mark or so.

The ZR1 on street tires I bet will run 10's if it does not spin all the way down the track if the LS7 cars are runing high 10's stock on radials.

Like I said, if I was going to build a small block it would be an LSX or a Warhawk.

Before I bought this car I was a week or so away from building a 402 Iron LS (LQ9 I think it is) short block good for a 300 shot and some nice AFR heads for my last car.

[LTLHOMER]

With a 150 shot, still had a 300 on the second stage and those runs were not sprayed untill the 60 mark or so.

The ZR1 on street tires I bet will run 10's if it does not spin all the way down the track if the LS7 cars are runing high 10's stock on radials.

Like I said, if I was going to build a small block it would be an LSX or a Warhawk.

Before I bought this car I was a week or so away from building a 402 Iron LS (LQ9 I think it is) short block good for a 300 shot and some nice AFR heads for my last car.
Just an FYI, but only one LS7 car has been high 10's. Put the other 999 out of 1000 drivers in it and it goes mid 11's with low 11's from maybe a few at best.

LSX stuff is cool but not as cost-effective as the 1st gen stuff. I had an LS1 (went 8's at over 160 with a lot of stock parts) and now I have a SBC.

[Mike Beck]

Ok, let's do a comparison. What would it cost to build a RELIABLE 700hp bracket motor with the LSX stuff or the "Old" stuff? I spent about $10K on my 600hp "Old School" 414 SBC to go 10.0's @ 3200lbs all day long. No troubles EVER! I shoot it with juice once in awhile and go low 9's. What can be done with the new stuff and what kind of price and reliability? How many heads are out there that actually use the 6 bolts and flow decently? Are NHRA legal balancers and flexplates out? I know nothing about these newer motors except that I use on in my truck to tow my old shit around!

[LTLHOMER]

Ok, let's do a comparison. What would it cost to build a RELIABLE 700hp bracket motor with the LSX stuff or the "Old" stuff? I spent about $10K on my 600hp "Old School" 414 SBC to go 10.0's @ 3200lbs all day long. No troubles EVER! I shoot it with juice once in awhile and go low 9's. What can be done with the new stuff and what kind of price and reliability? How many heads are out there that actually use the 6 bolts and flow decently? Are NHRA legal balancers and flexplates out? I know nothing about these newer motors except that I use on in my truck to tow my old shit around!
All of that stuff is out for the LSX motors but it's usually more expensive.

The slope on the performance per dollar curve is steeper for the LSX but the old school SBC starts higher. So at the low to mid hp end the LSX is king since you can use factory parts to make big power but once you start traversing up that slope you will find the SBC cheaper from the middle to the high end of the hp spectrum. That's my 2 cents having done it both ways.

[qwiknotch]

Depends on the power you want to make...
I have made 600hp n/a with less than $10k in it
and you don't need a 6 bolt head to flow good numbers
The Dart 225's with porting will flow 350/260 @.700
the AFR 225's will flow around the same
ETP heads can flow in the 370/270 range
The C5R head, which is a factory head, can flow around the 380/280 range.
L92 heads can flow around 350/250 @ .700

these are only things I have read, I haven't personally seen the flow numbers yet.

[Mr.Martystone]

Ok, let's do a comparison. What would it cost to build a RELIABLE 700hp bracket motor with the LSX stuff or the "Old" stuff? I spent about $10K on my 600hp "Old School" 414 SBC to go 10.0's @ 3200lbs all day long. No troubles EVER! I shoot it with juice once in awhile and go low 9's. What can be done with the new stuff and what kind of price and reliability? How many heads are out there that actually use the 6 bolts and flow decently? Are NHRA legal balancers and flexplates out? I know nothing about these newer motors except that I use on in my truck to tow my old shit around!


I'm building my complete motor with 98mm turbo for less than 10k. Just thought I'd let ya know. And I think I will make just a bit more than 600hp. YBBitch:

[LTLHOMER]

I'm building my complete motor with 98mm turbo for less than 10k. Just thought I'd let ya know. And I think I will make just a bit more than 600hp. YBBitch:
Yeah but for how long? I made well over 1000 but 75 passes and she let a rod go. That was stock crank, eagle h-beams w/ L19s, stock heads, stock block/caps, etc. The LS1s definitely need a dry sump system to make them live while the SBCs seem to do okay with wet sumps.

[Suicidal Racing]

you can do a 700hp l92 with a 6.0 short block..use the stock crank,get some rod bolts or rods,then pistons if your going n/a if not an juice i've read a shit load of times about people making 600rwhp with juice on a completely stock short block

So doller for doller going after 700hp and just in that range i would for sure go with the 3rd gen sbc..what seems like the most costly thing on the third gens is the damn shaft rockers and even them are close to the same price as a set of gen 1 sbc rockers.


Plus think about how many n2o engines out there are now using 15 or 18 degree heads..with the lsx shit you get 12-15 degree heads vs a damn 23 degree heads which if you want to get a head flowing in the 320 range your looking at 2200$ for vs 1200$

[qwiknotch]

I heard you can also use an external oil pump vs a dry sump, but that's only when you are spinning the LS engines over 7000

[LTLHOMER]

I heard you can also use an external oil pump vs a dry sump, but that's only when you are spinning the LS engines over 7000
Yeah I took mine 8500 on the stock setup and the end result was a rod out of the oil pan. Oooops! I either had to lift top-end or keep it hammered and hope she didn't blow. It worked the first 74 times! lol

[qwiknotch]

hahaha...

8500, huh? hmm... Maybe I will be safe at 7400 :)

[Billyman]

Yeah I took mine 8500 on the stock setup and the end result was a rod out of the oil pan. Oooops! I either had to lift top-end or keep it hammered and hope she didn't blow. It worked the first 74 times! lol

What kind of oil pan and oil control?

[LTLHOMER]

What kind of oil pan and oil control?
Stock everything. Fbody cast pan. I think the pump was an upgraded unit but that's it.

[Billyman]

That my friend was your problem. :(

[qwiknotch]

So, is there a way without spending thousands on a dry sump (since I can't use one in the class I run) or an external oil pump, to maintain proper oiling at 7500???

[LTLHOMER]

That my friend was your problem. :(
haha I'd say so. It was fun while it lasted though.

Best pass at Stanton:
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/Twinturbo-94z-new-best_75374.htm

[Billyman]

So, is there a way without spending thousands on a dry sump (since I can't use one in the class I run) or an external oil pump, to maintain proper oiling at 7500???

It wasn't too long ago a gentleman called me from a shop in Florida (we are in N.C.) with oiling problems. He said he had 80 psi of oil pressure until he got to the end of the track and running in excess of 7 grand where the oil pressure dropped below 10psi. I suggested some parts and he had them "next day aired" since the customer was coming to the car the next day. He called me back with a huge "thank you" and a "worked like a charm".

Oil pressure amounts are crucial to an aluminum LS block and mainly due to block flex and expansion. .0012 clearance on the mains can be .0031 real quick throughout a 1/4 mile pass. The old rule of thumb about oil pressure raising 1 psi for every 100 RPM is out the door. With these blocks we fight to maintain a constant. The actual problem is poor oil control under acceleration and literally running out of oil in the pick up area of the factory oil pan. Not that all the oil gets pumped up top mind you but because of the extra clearances involved.

A GM LS6 oil pump will do the job you want without modification. Any clean up, deburring or spring shimming for added oil pressure is up to you. Something as simple as an oil pan, baffle and pickup tube will save your ass.

This kit does require a remote oil filter and there are lots of such on the market. The oil pan kit I'd advise is (and can be found at a number of different places):

http://www.lmperformance.com/18630/1.html

You won't be sorry you did it.

[Mike Beck]

I was just working with someone that built an LS2 motor. We were breaking-in the motor, just racking-up some street miles and tuning the part-throttle with the BS3. Everything was going perfect, until.............After about 250 miles on the motor we stepped into it a few times. Pulled great, more than I would have expected for what it is. Did that a few times, no traffic or police around! :) A/F ratio looked just about perfect, oil pressure great, water temp great. After the third "pull" (we brought it to 7200rpm on that last one) the engine started to "lope" like an alcohol car does at idle, but we were driving along at 55 mph! I thought he was fucking around, but his foot was steady on the throttle!

We pull-over, motor goes down to idle and sat there at 1000rpm smoothly, revved it a few times, seemed fine, air temp and water temp was good, oil pressure was good. We decide to go get more gas and call it a day. About 10 miles from there WHAM, oil pressure falls to 15psi driving along at 2000rpm! Rev the motor in neutral, oil pressure is rising and falling with the rpm. We pull-off the road, no strange noises, pull the dip stick, it's full. Re-start the motor, 15psi and lifters sound kinda noisy (hydraulic).

He says fuck it, we are 2 miles from my house and we drive it home. All temps were good, engine ran smooth, only 15psi! Kept rpm under 2000 on 25mph side streets.

He flat-beds it home, cuts apart the filter (remote mount) and it's full of bearing material! He will be pulling the motor back out and bring it back to the machine shop this week.

So...........after this long story, what do you guys think? He thought the cam felt a little snug when he slid it in. The machine shop told him don't worry. If the aluminum expands when it gets hot, wouldn't the bearing clearances close-up?

I have always been impressed with the oil pressure on my 2001 2500-series Silverado with the 6.0l. Always at a minimum of 40psi no matter what! Just like my race motor once I went to an aftermarket block. My other race motors based-off of stock GM blocks would always drop to 20psi when they were hot at idle, but not my Bowtie block, it is always 40psi when hot. GM and the aftermarket certainly fixed something with these better blocks.

I thought they also made this fix with the LS-series blocks. From what I am reading here, there is a problem though it you want to turn them past 6500.

Just what needs to be done to make them work? This is exactly why I stuck with the "old school" shit. I bracket race and need 100% reliability, not a few-pass wonder like the 302 Mustangs and Grand Nationals used to be. Has to withstand 300+ passes a year before a tear-down. Most of my buddies go close to 1000 passes on the old stuff before they take them apart.

Who is doing this with the LS motors? Haven't seen any around here, I don't want to be the guinea-pig unless someone is donating the stuff to me to run, then they can have it back after a year, or it blows-up, whichever comes first!

Good-flowing heads don't mean crap when the rest of it comes apart. Not knocking the new motors, but they were not designed for bracket-racing abuse, neither were the old ones.

[Billyman]

On aluminum blocks pinning the main caps helps a bunch. Running a main girdle helps the most if not all but cures the block twist problem. Still it is an aluminum block so clearances are critical as to leave or take away room for growth.

On iron blocks such as the LQ4 6.0 block, the main girdle isn't necessary but pinning the caps is still recommended. We ran a 6.0 iron block "LS" setup in one of our race cars for over 2 years and I couldn't count the number of passes it has on it. It's on the stand right now and is still a strong runner, it was just time to upgrade.

The fact still remains on the iron and aluminum blocks, oil control is everything and that starts with a good oil pan.

If you've seen the video's of "the worlds fastest/quickest TrailBlazerSS".........give us a few months and see what it's doing then. :)

[1badazzride2]

On aluminum blocks pinning the main caps helps a bunch. Running a main girdle helps the most if not all but cures the block twist problem. Still it is an aluminum block so clearances are critical as to leave or take away room for growth.

On iron blocks such as the LQ4 6.0 block, the main girdle isn't necessary but pinning the caps is still recommended. We ran a 6.0 iron block "LS" setup in one of our race cars for over 2 years and I couldn't count the number of passes it has on it. It's on the stand right now and is still a strong runner, it was just time to upgrade.

The fact still remains on the iron and aluminum blocks, oil control is everything and that starts with a good oil pan.

If you've seen the video's of "the worlds fastest/quickest TrailBlazerSS".........give us a few months and see what it's doing then. :)

Something NEW for the Shoot Out I take it?? :smt077:Kneel

[Billyman]

Something old-something new.

Same TBSS, just revamped. The quickest pass it ever had was 10.21 @132.

It was waaaayyyyy too slow. :D

[1badazzride2]

Dam Billy if ya call that slow - mine is a F'in turtle.
thanks alot

[njc.corp]

who makes a decent oil pan for a 04 gto?(front pan set-up)

what are people's thought's on the meling 295 and 296 lsx oil pumps?

Thanks

Nick--

[Pro Stock John]

Mike Beck, sorry to hear about your buddy's problems. I think honestly that something was not built right in the engine, or the tune was off and there was detonation.

In the early years of the LS1 scene there was some engines that would have problems like that but it was more to do with bearing clearances and other install issues. There are now many combos out there that have a lot of passes on them before getting pulled. Some early LS1 engine players either didn't have strong backgrounds building any engines or were making mistakes, but we are 6-7 years past a lot of that stuff. Good luck.