New Ignition, Did I get the right stuff?

[dizope]

Building a new motor and wanted to make sure I got the right stuff.

15:1 406ci on a 500 shot with a progressive controller.

Crank Trigger for 7" balancer (MSD-8610)
Crank Trigger Distributor (MSD-84697)
Programmable Digital 7 Plus (MSD-7531)
HVC-II Coil (MSD-8261)

I run an alternator and a March Serp setup, how will the crank trigger affect that and what other things should I be concerned with? This is our first crank trigger.

Thanks!

[QIKLUV]

15.1 406 and 500 spray....man good luck with that..
that is too much comp for that kind of spray. IMO
you will like the crank trigger .it is alway dead on the timing mark.

[NOS-Nelson]

15.1 406 and 500 spray....man good luck with that..
that is too much comp for that kind of spray. IMO
you will like the crank trigger .it is alway dead on the timing mark.

He has a secret weapon.:cool:

Looks like the good stuff Richard. Sounds like you will have to space out all of your pulleys the same thickness as the crank trigger.

[Monty Mikho]

Building a new motor and wanted to make sure I got the right stuff.

15:1 406ci on a 500 shot with a progressive controller.

Crank Trigger for 7" balancer (MSD-8610)
Crank Trigger Distributor (MSD-84697)
Programmable Digital 7 Plus (MSD-7531)
HVC-II Coil (MSD-8261)

I run an alternator and a March Serp setup, how will the crank trigger affect that and what other things should I be concerned with? This is our first crank trigger.

Thanks!

On my MSD wheel I had to put it on the lathe and cut a slight step into the face so my pulley would locate off the center when putting on my Moroso mandrel. 7531 is a great ignition but I'm not too sure about using slew control on nitrous if you intend on doing so. If not you will love it. I like high compression for nitrous. I have tried it both ways and the higher seemed to be better for me as I didn't need as much nitrous to go as quick. 500 HP seems a little too high but I would think being in the 350-400 or so range is very realistic..

[NOS-Nelson]

On my MSD wheel I had to put it on the lathe and cut a slight step into the face so my pulley would locate off the center when putting on my Moroso mandrel. 7531 is a great ignition but I'm not too sure about using slew control on nitrous if you intend on doing so. If not you will love it. I like high compression for nitrous. I have tried it both ways and the higher seemed to be better for me as I didn't need as much nitrous to go as quick. 500 HP seems a little too high but I would think being in the 350-400 or so range is very realistic..

Not to worry Monty. I've got it covered.:cool: He's got a progressive so no need for the slew rate.

[Monty Mikho]

Not to worry Monty. I've got it covered.:cool: He's got a progressive so no need for the slew rate.


Very cool..

On an off note.. do you or anyone here ever play with slew control and nitrous? If so how does it work or does it work?

[NOS-Nelson]

Very cool..

On an off note.. do you or anyone here ever play with slew control and nitrous? If so how does it work or does it work?

I know people who use it. You can tell when the car pops and bangs for the first 30-40ft or so. But they use fuel injection and have no way to run the progressive. It seems to work OK for them.

[Ed-vancedEngines]

Monty,
If more compression is better, tell me why most of the newer Pro Mod nitrous engines have below 13.00 -1 ?

If you are still believing like many others that you try to make as much hp with as much compression as possible so you can use less nitrous, you are still stuck in the dark ages. That is not a nitrous engine. That would be an all motor engine that will accept nitrous. Huge difference in the two. If I build an all motor engine for maximumj hp and with high compression, nobody better try to add any nitrous or it will blow sky high. A good strong serious all motor engine is already on the edge as it is.

What many builders are calling a nitrous engine is using a so-called heavier nitrous piston, maybe heavier wrist pins and a cam called a nitrous cam and then do just about everything else the same as their other engines in clearancing and set-up. That results in an engine that will run quicker with more power at moderate nitrous levels but when the owner decides to step it up he/;or she gets problems from the too hot of burn and too much cylinder pressures before TDC.

As a side note you will not find any nitrous engine putting down over maybe 1,800 hp and above that have high compression. The ones that try it end up splitting blocks open, melting pistons etc.

Ignition uses of the 7531;
What most of the cars around here are doing is to pull launch timing out, to not hit as hard and ramp it back in at pre-set time interval.

Free school lesson at no charge.

By the way now that you are doing turbo don't do high compresson with turbo either. You can use less boost for the same power with higher compression ratio though, up to the destruction point.

Ed

[dizope]

He has a secret weapon.:cool:

Looks like the good stuff Richard. Sounds like you will have to space out all of your pulleys the same thickness as the crank trigger.
Not to worry Monty. I've got it covered.:cool: He's got a progressive so no need for the slew rate.
Thanks Mike!

[dizope]

On my MSD wheel I had to put it on the lathe and cut a slight step into the face so my pulley would locate off the center when putting on my Moroso mandrel. 7531 is a great ignition but I'm not too sure about using slew control on nitrous if you intend on doing so. If not you will love it. I like high compression for nitrous. I have tried it both ways and the higher seemed to be better for me as I didn't need as much nitrous to go as quick. 500 HP seems a little too high but I would think being in the 350-400 or so range is very realistic..
Thanks Monty.

No intent for slew rate.

[dizope]

Monty,
If more compression is better, tell me why most of the newer Pro Mod nitrous engines have below 13.00 -1 ?

If you are still believing like many others that you try to make as much hp with as much compression as possible so you can use less nitrous, you are still stuck in the dark ages. That is not a nitrous engine. That would be an all motor engine that will accept nitrous. Huge difference in the two. If I build an all motor engine for maximumj hp and with high compression, nobody better try to add any nitrous or it will blow sky high. A good strong serious all motor engine is already on the edge as it is.

What many builders are calling a nitrous engine is using a so-called heavier nitrous piston, maybe heavier wrist pins and a cam called a nitrous cam and then do just about everything else the same as their other engines in clearancing and set-up. That results in an engine that will run quicker with more power at moderate nitrous levels but when the owner decides to step it up he/;or she gets problems from the too hot of burn and too much cylinder pressures before TDC.

As a side note you will not find any nitrous engine putting down over maybe 1,800 hp and above that have high compression. The ones that try it end up splitting blocks open, melting pistons etc.

Ignition uses of the 7531;
What most of the cars around here are doing is to pull launch timing out, to not hit as hard and ramp it back in at pre-set time interval.

Free school lesson at no charge.

By the way now that you are doing turbo don't do high compresson with turbo either. You can use less boost for the same power with higher compression ratio though, up to the destruction point.

Ed
Mike/Monty, what do you have to say about this?

Ed, I have a progressive controller so I won't be using the box to pull timing.

My main concern was that I got the right 7, there are like 4 different part numbers... and that all the other pieces are right for the combo.

[Monty Mikho]

Monty,
If more compression is better, tell me why most of the newer Pro Mod nitrous engines have below 13.00 -1 ?

If you are still believing like many others that you try to make as much hp with as much compression as possible so you can use less nitrous, you are still stuck in the dark ages. That is not a nitrous engine. That would be an all motor engine that will accept nitrous. Huge difference in the two. If I build an all motor engine for maximum hp and with high compression, nobody better try to add any nitrous or it will blow sky high. A good strong serious all motor engine is already on the edge as it is.

What many builders are calling a nitrous engine is using a so-called heavier nitrous piston, maybe heavier wrist pins and a cam called a nitrous cam and then do just about everything else the same as their other engines in clearancing and set-up. That results in an engine that will run quicker with more power at moderate nitrous levels but when the owner decides to step it up he/;or she gets problems from the too hot of burn and too much cylinder pressures before TDC.

As a side note you will not find any nitrous engine putting down over maybe 1,800 hp and above that have high compression. The ones that try it end up splitting blocks open, melting pistons etc.

Ignition uses of the 7531;
What most of the cars around here are doing is to pull launch timing out, to not hit as hard and ramp it back in at pre-set time interval.

Free school lesson at no charge.

By the way now that you are doing turbo don't do high compresson with turbo either. You can use less boost for the same power with higher compression ratio though, up to the destruction point.

Ed


Ed all I can say is I ran a 7.8's (on record at an event .. NSCA Super Modified) with 15.5 - 1 compression using a .040 pill. I lowered the compression because everyone told me I was a moron for using high compression to 14.2 - 1 and needed a .044 pill to run just a little slower while breaking pistons. This breaking pistons came after running 3 years of unbroken pistons with 15.5 - 1 .. I can only comment on my setup. I think everyone can agree.. The more nitrous we need to go faster.. The closer to burned piston world we become. I hate unknowns... Nitrous running on a the ragged edge is one of them.. I don't want to argue about this as I know you are an engine builder that does this for a living. All im sharing is my experiences with my combination. As for high compression in a turbo? I would never do it because everyone knows it will never work..

[dizope]

Ed all I can say is I ran a 7.8's (on record at an event .. NSCA Super Modified) with 15.5 - 1 compression using a .040 pill. I lowered the compression because everyone told me I was a moron for using high compression to 14.2 - 1 and needed a .044 pill to run just a little slower while breaking pistons. This breaking pistons came after running 3 years of unbroken pistons with 15.5 - 1 .. I can only comment on my setup. I think everyone can agree.. The more nitrous we need to go faster.. The closer to burned piston world we become. I hate unknowns... Nitrous running on a the ragged edge is one of them.. I don't want to argue about this as I know you are an engine builder that does this for a living. All im sharing is my experiences with my combination. As for high compression in a turbo? I would never do it because everyone knows it will never work..
Thanks for the reassurance.

[Monty Mikho]

Thanks for the reassurance.

I ran a 406 and loved that motor... Here are some specs on the motor and car..



(http://yellowbullet.com/yellowbullet1_005.htm)406 build up spec sheet (http://yellowbullet.com/yellowbullet1_005.htm)

Heads: Dart 220's standard runner with 2.100IN / 1.625EX (flow numbers below)

Lift ---- IN -----EX
200----148----108
300----206----167
400----251----203
500----281----233
600----293----241
700----305----246
750----309----249

Rockers: Crane 1.5 ratio IN/EX
Cam: Comp Cams 660IN/630EX (sorry dont have spec card anymore) the cam was selected by Comp Cams for me
Pistons: BME forged aluminum 13.89 compression
Rods: GRP Aluminum 5.990"
Crank: Luniti liteweight billet
Manifold: Dart Wilson 4500 style
Carb: 1050 Holley Dominator
Ignition: MSD Crank trigger with 7-AL2 box and digital retard
MSD: wires 8.5mm
Nitous: NOS Fogger
Plugs: Champion C-59YC on motor
NGK 5671-10 on NOS
Car weight and %: 3370 with driver 51.7% front weight
Transmission: Turbo 400 from Coan reverse valve body with brake
Converter: Coan 8" 5500RPM stall
Rearend: Dana 60 with 5.13 gear motor and 4.56 on NOS
Chassis: full cage chrome moly with 4 link
Wheels rear: Weld Pro Stars 15x15
Tires rear: Hoosier quick time pros 33x21.5
Hood: 2" cowl fiberglass
Interior: Stock GM with no back seats
Car went 9.82 on motor with 5.13 gear
Car went 10.2x on motor with 4.56 gear and 9.11 spraying 250HP of nitrous 2/10s out of the whole with a digi-set timer
Im sure the motor had more in it but it was my first time playing with NOS....
(http://yellowbullet.com/yellowbullet1_005.htm)

This was a very fun motor and really didnt know what nitrous was all about. My friends and I figured as long as we pulled the plugs out and the ground strap was still on there we were doing very well. I remember the plugs coming out black as hell.. But hey we had a ground strap.. This combo came together after running 14 second bracket cars.. It was a blast to have and wish I would have kept the car the way it was rather than trying to go faster. It was a very plain jane motor.. :p

[dizope]

Monty, that's amazing to get your 3370# car to go 9.8/10.2 with that 406. It takes a 275 shot to get my current 406 at 3715# to run that fast and it's close in setup to yours... lol

Hopefully this new 406 gets us in the 10's on the motor and deep, deep 9's on the big wire.

[NOS-Nelson]

I'd have to do some math but i'm sure most 700+ cubic inch engines are over 13:1 with a flat top piston. To me the biggest key is the fuel. In order to make C23 work you need 15:1 or better. The lowest compression engine we have in our shop is a 14.8:1 555ci Big Chief headed engine. It doesn't have enough cubic inches to get anymore compression.:cool:

[dizope]

I'd have to do some math but i'm sure most 700+ cubic inch engines are over 13:1 with a flat top piston. To me the biggest key is the fuel. In order to make C23 work you need 15:1 or better. The lowest compression engine we have in our shop is a 14.8:1 555ci Big Chief headed engine. It doesn't have enough cubic inches to get anymore compression.:cool:
So if we don't get 15:1, C23 won't be the fuel for me?

I filled out the info sheet from Patrick last night and he recommended his 1100cfm Nitrous IV carb. I told him I would order when we get closer.

I talked to Dan this morning and he is going in for shoulder surgery in a few weeks so he is going to try to squeeze me in before that otherwise it's at least 8 weeks before I can take him the car... which would really suck.

[NOS-Nelson]

So if we don't get 15:1, C23 won't be the fuel for me?

I filled out the info sheet from Patrick last night and he recommended his 1100cfm Nitrous IV carb. I told him I would order when we get closer.

I talked to Dan this morning and he is going in for shoulder surgery in a few weeks so he is going to try to squeeze me in before that otherwise it's at least 8 weeks before I can take him the car... which would really suck.

I should have put 14.5:1. I'll have to see what the numbers show me. :cool:

[Ed-vancedEngines]

Nos wrote;
I'd have to do some math but i'm sure most 700+ cubic inch engines are over 13:1 with a flat top piston.

Nos, try moving the head further from the piston. I promise the compression measured static will go down. You woill not believe how much quench distance some of these things are running. If you are going by the style of pistons customers are ordering. I'll give a quick hint, At least two of the top Pro Street cars do not even need valve reliefs in their pistons. Valves come nowhere near their pistons.

You are correct though that even a flat top piston in a larger engine with a nominal quench and the tight chambers, will still be a higher compression. Higher than 13 - 1 for sure. Much higher.


This one I can't figure what you mean? I am sure it is a joke, maybe?
The lowest compression engine we have in our shop is a 14.8:1 555ci Big Chief headed engine. It doesn't have enough cubic inches to

Ed

[dizope]

I should have put 14.5:1. I'll have to see what the numbers show me. :cool:
Cool, thanks homie!

[NOS-Nelson]

Nos wrote;


Nos, try moving the head further from the piston. I promise the compression measured static will go down. You woill not believe how much quench distance some of these things are running. If you are going by the style of pistons customers are ordering. I'll give a quick hint, At least two of the top Pro Street cars do not even need valve reliefs in their pistons. Valves come nowhere near their pistons.

You are correct though that even a flat top piston in a larger engine with a nominal quench and the tight chambers, will still be a higher compression. Higher than 13 - 1 for sure. Much higher.


This one I can't figure what you mean? I am sure it is a joke, maybe?


Ed

I don't know enough of the specifics on those engines Ed. I didn't realize they ran them deep in the hole.

No joke Ed. On our 555 due to the 18 degree head we can't get a very big dome in there. What I have seen is when you lay the valves over the chamber size doesn't lose as many CC's as you lose in the dome of the piston. I'm not sure if I confused you more.:p