Battery System for heavy nitrous

[mixbreed]

Would 2 Optima batteries be enough to power a car without an alternator? The car has a fogger, MSD Digital 7, electric fuel pump, electric water pump, electric fans, etc.

The carr will be sprayed with 500hp.

Thanks

[Monty Mikho]

The quick answer is yes.. I was running 2 stages with 2 yellow cap batteries. But if you are in a rush between rounds and dont have time to charge, you better put an alternator on it.. My data log would go as low as 11.6 volts on a run with everything on. It did this with one or two stages when I was running carbs. When I switch to EFI the voltage drops caused some problems. I added a alternator (12v 140 AMP) and it would hold the voltage to 12.7 on the run.. I switched to a single 16 volt w/o an alternator and it held at 15.6-15.7 on a run. If you can switch to a single 16 do so.. less weight, more voltage on the run and no alternator needed.. Just my 2 cents..

[Camaro_Dave]

i know this is an old subject but i have some questions...
what all do you need to switch to a 16v battery? it'll be mostly strip and some street. i'm just wondering if the lights and stuff will blow or any other wiring in the car.
thanks

[Monty Mikho]

I just dropped the battery in.. Im sure the life of lights will shorten.. By how much? Not really sure..

[YDLUZ]

The only thing, isn't it a fact that everything electrical works better with 14 volts or higher???? Just something to think about.

Good Luck!

[Tom McDunnah]

BINGO

[shaggy]

I see they sell a 16 volt alternator. Is it necessary to use one if you upgrade to a 16 volt battery and wanted to keep an alternator?

[Monty Mikho]

You can use an alternator if you would like.. I ran without one and one battery and didn't have any problems..

[Tom McDunnah]

I run an alternator and 2 small 12 volt batterys also I have a switch in the car to turn off alt. but I always run it,,works flawlessly

[Gary Abbey]

So you can drop a 16v batterie in and still run the 140 12v alternator?

[Camaro_Dave]

if its that easy why don't more people do it? i don't know why they wouldn't.

[Monty Mikho]

Gary a 12 alternator will not work..

Camaro Dave.. Im not sure.. maybe the expense of the battery and charger is the reason.. not sure..

[Camaro_Dave]

gotcha

[YDLUZ]

I do not mean to sound like a know it all - because most of you guys make double the pwr I do - but I'll offer an opinion if that's okay?

Running electrical systems with no altenator is not wise in my opinion. Call MSD and ask them what volts you need at that fancy box if you have one? Call Magnafuel or Product Engineering and ask them what voltage they prefer at their pumps? Electric water pumps and fans, same thing.

I'm not saying it can't be done, hell I spray a full 350 hit at 1,800 rpm with a JE non nitrous piston - but I realize when it breaks what the problem may be.

It's best to consider all of the items you're powering, add up the amp draw, and build an electrical system to handle it, hopefully under full load you have at least 13.5 volts, mine is 14.2 at the lowest point in the system. Again - most electrical stuff performs better at higher voltage, 12.3-12.8 from a battery is the low end for sure and nothing will work as good there. My old 71 Camaro head lights are at 14.4 and they are brighter than many new cars!

Good Luck!!!

[Camaro_Dave]

i heard they don't sell a 16v battery anymore....is that true?

[Sparky]

A couple of things to consider, an MSD Ignition will only pull 1 amp per thousand RPM, @ 14 volts, an electric water pump will draw 6 to 7 amps, an electric fan will draw about 20 to 30 amps on start up and run a continuous 12 to 15 amp draw while running, depending on the fan, and finally a electric fuel pump will draw 15 to 20 amps depending how hard you strain the pump.
Depending on combination and with the growing popularity of mechanical fuel pumps, you could rid the electrical system of one of the biggest current draws in the system. In fact most of the cars I work on are only running one 16 volt battery. A couple of reasons for this are a mechanical fuel pump and less weight. Then only other concern might be what the N20 solenoids pull, but there are solenoids being manufactured today that only pull 1 amp per solenoid, something to think about…..

PowerMaster http://www.powermastermotorsports.com/ and Altronics http://www.altronicsinc.com/ are both making 16 volt AGM dry cell batteries and chargers, as far as I know, they both are readily available. Installing them is easy, just drop them in.
I have never removed 12 volt batteries and installed 16 volt batteries and had a car slow down, they have all picked up, again some good food for thought….

A word on alternators, they can be a double edge razor. In a 12 volt application you can’t get away without one, bottom line. With a 16 volt application though, you can get away with running just the battery.
A successful racecar is a consistent racecar, most of what makes up a consistent racecar is a noise free racecar, what I mean by noise free, is a racecar that has very little EMI issues, you will never totally get rid of EMI, but there are ways to isolate EMI.
Wanna know how? Make an appointment (lol).

Anyway, an alternator is a giant EMI making machine and it gets into everything on the car. I don’t recommend installing alternators on racecars for this reason, but to each there own.
I had an example with Hardcore Racing during a dyno session, the EFI would go absolutely nuts with the tune up, turns out that the alternator battery wire was touching the coolant sensor wires and introducing noise into the EFI system. We got rid of the alternator and the tune up was perfect.

I hope this helps
Sparky

[YDLUZ]

my comments and the voltages I mentioned are all meant for a 12 volt charing system/batttery, that's why I listed the voltages.

[Sparky]

All the specifications I listed were off of the manufactures websites. I can only assume it was all rated at 12 volts, the only voltage specification given was MSD. Regardless what the voltage is, it's the amps your concerned with anyway, amperage drives voltage.

Sparky

[Camaro_Dave]

so no alternator then? what if its street driven every once in a while? just hook one up for times driven on street?

[YDLUZ]

All the specifications I listed were off of the manufactures websites. I can only assume it was all rated at 12 volts, the only voltage specification given was MSD. Regardless what the voltage is, it's the amps your concerned with anyway, amperage drives voltage.

Sparky

I'm not going to argue with you. Running or attempting to run lots of electrical stuff off of a 12 volt battery is a bad idea in my opinion. some do it, some don't.

[Sparky]

Who's arguing? And where did I ever say you should run 12 volts?
I’ll be the first to suggest running a 16 volt system and without an alternator. You’re the one that was pushing the 12 volt deal with an alternator. I clearly spelled out the amperage ratings of the items that you normally find on a racecar. I listed this to give an idea of what the components pull for power, to try and help out. It wasn’t meant as a slam.
Like I explained the “manufacture” supplied the values in which I listed. I also noted that I did not know at what voltage these items were tested at to get the amperage values, I only assumed that it was 12 volts.
It has been my understanding that if you ran a 16 volt system, the item would not pull the same amperage.
But what do I know. This isn't my first rodeo……

[YDLUZ]

Who's arguing? And where did I ever say you should run 12 volts?
I’ll be the first to suggest running a 16 volt system and without an alternator. You’re the one that was pushing the 12 volt deal with an alternator. I clearly spelled out the amperage ratings of the items that you normally find on a racecar. I listed this to give an idea of what the components pull for power, to try and help out. It wasn’t meant as a slam.
Like I explained the “manufacture” supplied the values in which I listed. I also noted that I did not know at what voltage these items were tested at to get the amperage values, I only assumed that it was 12 volts.
It has been my understanding that if you ran a 16 volt system, the item would not pull the same amperage.
But what do I know. This isn't my first rodeo……

oops, I read too fast for my brain, yes, I see now. I was mixing up 16 volt vs. 12 volt. The orginal post I thought was in regard to a 12 volt batteries - so maybe that's where I got confused. But....really we are saying a lot of the same things, keep the voltage up and have enough juice to pwr whatever you're running. I see guys all the time running 12 volt stuff with no altenator, when you measure everything under full load they are under 12, this is what my comments were intended to say is not wise.

........sorry I got confused!

[Sparky]

I agree with you fully.
Whta's even worse is when you add EFI to the mix. I have seen in the EFI data on a 12 volt system with no alternator, the voltage falls down into the 10 volt range, which is real spooky with EFI, because the tune up goes south in a hurry when you fall to these levels.
During the Dyno session with Hardcore that I entioned in an earlier post, we were running with voltage levels in the 18 volt range just to help keep the tune up stable.

Anyway, I'm sorry if I made things sound confusing
Sparky

[shark]

Hi there !

Interesting topic. If changing over to a 16 volt system and getting rid of the alternator, what kind of a maintenance does the 16 volt batteries require ? i.e. more frequent or longer charging between runs ? etc. or charging for some days before race day ?

thanks

AJ

[Sparky]

The whole deal with 16 volt batteries is the charger itself.
The Chargers that were sold by Turbo Start add insult to injury. It was the leading cause of failure to the new style AGM dry cell Batteries, due to inconsistent charging levels that would actually cook the batteries. (Overcharging)

Altronics has designed a new charger specifically for their battery that maintains a stable rate of charge. I have not received any information from PowerMaster on their Chargers.
With any battery you buy you should check with the manufactures recommendation as for charging and frequency of charging.

I know with the customer that I work with, we usually just follow a regular charging routine between rounds, meaning, when the car gets back to the trailer, the first thing we do is get the car on life support and it’s the last thing we disconnect form the car before we head to the lanes.
I hope this helps,
Sparky

[Gary Abbey]

Sparky,what do you think about the 12v batterie's that come with the extra 16v post?

[Sparky]

Isn't that a 16 volt battery with a 12 volt post? Whichever... I'm installing one in a customer’s car (Altronics). I have installed the old Turbo Start in the past utilizing the 12 volt post with no problems
Sparky

[shark]

Sparky

You did answer all the points that I was thanking about in respect to maintenance and charging.

Thanks

AJ