******Hand Gun Review********

[Monty Mikho]

I shot around 600 rounds in the past two days. Yesterday shooting around 400 and today around 200. I had a goal to see just what my best fit was. Below is the guns I shot..

Kimber Custom Match Team II 1911 45 caliber
Sig Sauer Equinox P229 40 caliber
Sig Sauer P226 9 mm
Smith and Wesson Model 410 40 caliber
Kahr K40 40 caliber
Glock 27 40 caliber with extended magazine

Number 1 pick ~ Kimber Custom: This has to be one of the best shooting guns I have ever shot. I was thinking of getting a Les Baer, Ed Brown or Wilson Combat but for the price this really can't be beat. This $1,100 gun shoots like a $2,200 Les Baer.

Number 2 pick ~ Sig Sauer P226: This gun can key hole the target most the time but grip on the gun is very critical. Too tight or too loose and the gun is off by a few inches over 25 feet. But keep a medium grip and you are sure to hit the target within an 1" or less

Number 3 pick ~ Sig Sauer P229: Like the above Sig this gun is very sensitive to grip. It will hold a very tight group, but if you anticipate the shot.. You will be all over the map. This is a 3.9" barrel gun.

Number 4 pick ~ S&W 410: If I could get a full refund on the gun I would trade it in for a Sig. But over all its a decent gun. It has a ton of recoil and shoots as if were a 45 on steroids. Grouping is nice once you get used to the recoil and get your hands adjusted to the grip

Number 5 pick ~ Glock 27: What a if I could get a full refund I would spend that money on something else other than a Glock. No matter what this gun will not hold a group that is acceptable over 25 feet. Maybe its my hands or my grip.. Not sure but I tried everything today and it will not group less than around 3" - 4"

Number 6 pick ~ Kahr K40: I actually used to like this gun. It is small and easy to carry. But the trigger pull is around 4000#'s and about 6 feet before you get a shot off. You cannot preload the trigger as you cannot feel any difference when it is ready to fire. Grouping of this gun is around the same as the Glock but will put a hurting on your hands after 30-40 rounds.

That is my picks of the day. Looking to get another Kimber Custom in a few week. I am very very very happy with that gun.. I also have my eye on a Wilson Combat (just like Gunny's) that I seen at Firing Line. Who knows.. This can get expensive quick.. But damn its fun!!!

[Jimmy Biggs]

note for the FBI;

Iraqie, Guns, Liberal

[Monty Mikho]

note for the FBI;

Iraqie, Guns, Liberal


They should be more worried that Im working on 6 new missiles.. Them pack a little more punch.. Tell the FBI I said hi.. They know me by name.. :smt110

[Tom McDunnah]

Ralphy....I mean Monty,,you'll shoot your eye out!!!

[Monty Mikho]

Tomorrow is a new day... Target Sports on Woodward :p

[MCM]

WTF - I thought you didn't like the Kimber in a previous review of yours??:confused:

[Monty Mikho]

WTF - I thought you didn't like the Kimber in a previous review of yours??:confused:


You might be thinking about the Springfield? I just picked this gun up 2 days ago..

[Jeremy Glass]

Sigs are my favorite. I used to own a 226, and currently a 225.

My next gun will be the smith and wesson M&P. Have you shot one yet? The grip is amazing and its as good if not better then the glock when it comes to polymers. Plus, the price is great.

[MCM]

You might be thinking about the Springfield? I just picked this gun up 2 days ago..Could be. I seem to recall you complaining about a jamming issue... Anyway, Target Sports is a pretty decent place to shoot - not quite as nice as DA though.

[Monty Mikho]

Sigs are my favorite. I used to own a 226, and currently a 225.

My next gun will be the smith and wesson M&P. Have you shot one yet? The grip is amazing and its as good if not better then the glock when it comes to polymers. Plus, the price is great.


I have not seen one of them yet. I just did a search and it looks like a cross between the Glock, Sig & the new Springfields. I like the way these guns break down. It looks better balanced then the model I have and may help a lot with hitting the target.

[Monty Mikho]

Could be. I seem to recall you complaining about a jamming issue... Anyway, Target Sports is a pretty decent place to shoot - not quite as nice as DA though.


LOL yeah I got ya there.. When I went with Carl and Bob the guns were jamming pretty good.. Then I shot at Impact in Utah and the same happened there.. I guess with Bob and Carl it was due to reloaded ammo and in Utah it was cause the guns were not taken care of. I have not had any jamming issues with this 1911.. actually I havent had no jamming issues with any gun I own.. Maintenance goes a long ways..

[FLYIN4D]

Is it legal to sell my guns in the for sale section? They just sit and collect dust. Might even be able to get a nice complete set of Blue Thunder heads/rockers if I can sell them all. Yes, Les Baer makes some nice stuff. I have three of his pistols and 1-rifle and a few other makes.

[HeadsUp10Five]

Is it legal to sell my guns in the for sale section? They just sit and collect dust. Might even be able to get a nice complete set of Blue Thunder heads/rockers if I can sell them all. Yes, Les Baer makes some nice stuff. I have three of his pistols and 1-rifle and a few other makes.

wes was that one of the guns you wanted to trade me for the racepack? i like the cash, but i should've taken the trade instead. damn.

[FLYIN4D]

Yes, it was my Baer .45 Thunder Ranch Home Defense Pistol w/M3 Tactical Illuminator. I love it, just sits in the safe only shot twice since I've owned it.

[speedy]

I'm looking into handguns too. I have yet to hold any to see how they feel but have the Sig 229, 226, Kimber Pro Carry II and compactII on my list to check out. Group buy ? lol

[Monty Mikho]

Yes, it was my Baer .45 Thunder Ranch Home Defense Pistol w/M3 Tactical Illuminator. I love it, just sits in the safe only shot twice since I've owned it.


SOLD!!! How much you want for it?

[Monty Mikho]

Is it legal to sell my guns in the for sale section? They just sit and collect dust. Might even be able to get a nice complete set of Blue Thunder heads/rockers if I can sell them all. Yes, Les Baer makes some nice stuff. I have three of his pistols and 1-rifle and a few other makes.


www.YellowBulletGuns.com (http://www.YellowBulletGuns.com) coming soon :p

[Jeremy Glass]

I have not seen one of them yet. I just did a search and it looks like a cross between the Glock, Sig & the new Springfields. I like the way these guns break down. It looks better balanced then the model I have and may help a lot with hitting the target.

When you are at target sports tomorrow rent the one they have. You can also change the grip from small, med., and large. Target sells the gun for $534, gander mountain has it for $499, and you can find it online for $399 if you look. It is also available in a compact version.

[MrMike990]

I shot around 600 rounds in the past two days. Yesterday shooting around 400 and today around 200. I had a goal to see just what my best fit was. Below is the guns I shot..

Kimber Custom Match Team II 1911 45 caliber
Sig Sauer Equinox P229 40 caliber
Sig Sauer P226 9 mm
Smith and Wesson Model 410 40 caliber
Kahr K40 40 caliber
Glock 27 40 caliber with extended magazine

Number 1 pick ~ Kimber Custom: This has to be one of the best shooting guns I have ever shot. I was thinking of getting a Les Baer, Ed Brown or Wilson Combat but for the price this really can't be beat. This $1,100 gun shoots like a $2,200 Les Baer.

Number 2 pick ~ Sig Sauer P226: This gun can key hole the target most the time but grip on the gun is very critical. Too tight or too loose and the gun is off by a few inches over 25 feet. But keep a medium grip and you are sure to hit the target within an 1" or less

Number 3 pick ~ Sig Sauer P229: Like the above Sig this gun is very sensitive to grip. It will hold a very tight group, but if you anticipate the shot.. You will be all over the map. This is a 3.9" barrel gun.

Number 4 pick ~ S&W 410: If I could get a full refund on the gun I would trade it in for a Sig. But over all its a decent gun. It has a ton of recoil and shoots as if were a 45 on steroids. Grouping is nice once you get used to the recoil and get your hands adjusted to the grip

Number 5 pick ~ Glock 27: What a if I could get a full refund I would spend that money on something else other than a Glock. No matter what this gun will not hold a group that is acceptable over 25 feet. Maybe its my hands or my grip.. Not sure but I tried everything today and it will not group less than around 3" - 4"

Number 6 pick ~ Kahr K40: I actually used to like this gun. It is small and easy to carry. But the trigger pull is around 4000#'s and about 6 feet before you get a shot off. You cannot preload the trigger as you cannot feel any difference when it is ready to fire. Grouping of this gun is around the same as the Glock but will put a hurting on your hands after 30-40 rounds.

That is my picks of the day. Looking to get another Kimber Custom in a few week. I am very very very happy with that gun.. I also have my eye on a Wilson Combat (just like Gunny's) that I seen at Firing Line. Who knows.. This can get expensive quick.. But damn its fun!!!



Kimber, is the best semi-custom bang for the buck. The quality of the materials and the fitment isn't as quite good as Wilson or Baer but nevertheless they are a great buy. Back in the early-mid 90's Bill Wilson(pre Wilson Combat or Tactical era when Bill actually built the pistols himself) reworked and built me some 1911's. Wilson told me this great story about how Chip McCormick was looking to have a 1911 fully digitized so that the parts could be nearly 100% CNC fabricated and that Chip was looking for a code writer and investors. Chip had this idea about wanting to produce a custom 1911 that would sell for less than $600. Well Bill told me "there's no way a custom gun can be sold for under $600" and he was laughing about it. Well Chip got his stuff togther and came out with a line of pistols. The Kimber company of Kimber rifles fame was just coming out of bankruptcy and was looking to do something different. They entered into an agreement with McCormick and the rest is history.

I've built custom 1911's using parts by Wilson, Baer, Brown and others but even if I sell one for around $1400-1500, I don't make much off it. I think the 1911 is one on the best naturally pointing pistols ever and eventhough it's basic design is over 100 yrs old, it's timeless.

I own Sigs and Glocks as well. I have one Glock that has over 11,000 rounds through it, not a single malfunction. Keep in mind, the G27 with it's short grip and sight radius is not a target pistol. It's designed to be easily concealed and brought into battery quickly, 3-4" groups at 8 meters is more than enough accuracy for self defense.

[N2Ojunkie]

I like my Sprigfield XD .40 so far. Has this given anyone problems I should know about.

[N2Ojunkie]

Where do all of you buy your guns from on-line? I am trying to get away from the local shops and thier crazy prices.

[sittinlow]

blah blah blah if it shoots a bullet and hits the target its a good gun in my book

[Jeremy Glass]

Where do all of you buy your guns from on-line? I am trying to get away from the local shops and thier crazy prices.

dansammo.com
budsgunshop.com
gunbroker.com

glocktalk.com classifieds
sigforum.com classifieds

[O.C White]

Where do all of you buy your guns from on-line? I am trying to get away from the local shops and thier crazy prices.

Jim,

if you think those local store prices are crazy take my advice, stay away from customs.

[Monty Mikho]

blah blah blah if it shoots a bullet and hits the target its a good gun in my book


There are only 3 spots on the body that will disable someone right now.. The forehead... the throat and the base of the spine.. Otherwise a person can still be mobile for some time to cause you great damage.. You can roll the dice.. I will opt for a better shot..

[Monty Mikho]

When you are at target sports tomorrow rent the one they have. You can also change the grip from small, med., and large. Target sells the gun for $534, gander mountain has it for $499, and you can find it online for $399 if you look. It is also available in a compact version.


I will give that gun a try.. The price sure seems right for sure..

[Monty Mikho]

Jim,

if you think those local store prices are crazy take my advice, stay away from customs.


Carl they had a Wilson a lot like yours (from what I can remember) at Firing Line today going for $1975... does that seem right?

[Monty Mikho]

Kimber, is the best semi-custom bang for the buck. The quality of the materials and the fitment isn't as quite good as Wilson or Baer but nevertheless they are a great buy. Back in the early-mid 90's Bill Wilson(pre Wilson Combat or Tactical era when Bill actually built the pistols himself) reworked and built me some 1911's. Wilson told me this great story about how Chip McCormick was looking to have a 1911 fully digitized so that the parts could be nearly 100% CNC fabricated and that Chip was looking for a code writer and investors. Chip had this idea about wanting to produce a custom 1911 that would sell for less than $600. Well Bill told me "there's no way a custom gun can be sold for under $600" and he was laughing about it. Well Chip got his stuff togther and came out with a line of pistols. The Kimber company of Kimber rifles fame was just coming out of bankruptcy and was looking to do something different. They entered into an agreement with McCormick and the rest is history.

I've built custom 1911's using parts by Wilson, Baer, Brown and others but even if I sell one for around $1400-1500, I don't make much off it. I think the 1911 is one on the best naturally pointing pistols ever and eventhough it's basic design is over 100 yrs old, it's timeless.

I own Sigs and Glocks as well. I have one Glock that has over 11,000 rounds through it, not a single malfunction. Keep in mind, the G27 with it's short grip and sight radius is not a target pistol. It's designed to be easily concealed and brought into battery quickly, 3-4" groups at 8 meters is more than enough accuracy for self defense.

Awesome post Mike.. thanks..:)

[sittinlow]

There are only 3 spots on the body that will disable someone right now.. The forehead... the throat and the base of the spine.. Otherwise a person can still be mobile for some time to cause you great damage.. You can roll the dice.. I will opt for a better shot..
its called buy a real gun like a shot gun and keep a box of slugs right next to it, if you dont think that wont disable you monty your welcome to come prove me wrong, :) i aint trying to start a pissing match, but for my house security it is a remington pump, if you are still mobile after the first slug hit ya, you have plenty of time to put another 2,and the wife is trained to use it lol, 2 two of your spots kill not disable :rolleyes:

[Monty Mikho]

Below is my little collection minus 2 hand guns.. You tell me what I use for home protection and what I use to carry.. Then what I use to play with... Unless you carry your 12 gauge.. then I cant argue with you..



http://www.yellowbullet.com/guns%20002.jpg

[sittinlow]

nice collection, like i said i wasnt trying pissing match, but a shotty is ultimate home protection, no you cannot sleep with it under the pillow, trust me i tried, put when you turn on the lights and a shotty is point in there pace you can smell the shit in there pants, but than again i live in sweet old windsor ontario, and never had to use it, exept for the local racoon that was terrorising the neighbour hood, and of course clay pigions

[Monty Mikho]

nice collection, like i said i wasnt trying pissing match, but a shotty is ultimate home protection, no you cannot sleep with it under the puillow, trust me i tried, put when you turn on the lights and a shotty is point in there pace you can smell the shit in there pants, but than again i live in sweet old windsor ontario, and never had to use it, exept for the local racoon that was terrorising the neighbour hood, and of course clay pigions


What do you mean not trying to start a pissing match? YBBitch: and everyone starts a pissing match here!!! CMAFR: :smt082 :smt082 :smt082

Shotguns are great.. if you can get to them in time.. But for convenience.. I like a handgun..

[sittinlow]

hey come on you should no me by now i never try to start a pissing match, lol, by the way what type of shot gun what the black and silver i like!!!!!

[Monty Mikho]

Here are Gunny's Guns... (Carl Gunny that is)... The all black one is second to none.. Awesome weapon!! All it needs is a "Silencer" on it.. :smt082

[sittinlow]

where no pic or link lol

[O.C White]

I don't see anything.

[Monty Mikho]

Its not uploading.. Wait phuck sticks!!!

[Jeremy Glass]

Here are Gunny's Guns... (Carl Gunny that is)... The all black one is second to none.. Awesome weapon!! All it needs is a "Silencer" on it.. :smt082

You mean supressor.

[sittinlow]

thats what i was saying

[sittinlow]

well dont post before you can produce this isnt sex lol

[Monty Mikho]

Here... had to change formats..

[Jeremy Glass]

Hey monty,

You can also buy that smith and wesson with an internal key lock or without. And you can get it with a mag. disconnect safety(wont fire unless the mag is installed) or without, or any combo of those locks/safeties.

[O.C White]

You mean supressor.

He knows that Hollywoood crap get's under my skin. Only nimrods in Hollywood call it a (ahem) silencer. I feel the same way Glidden does when someone calls it a motor.

[Monty Mikho]

You mean supressor.


Yeah but Gunny hates it when people call it a silencer.. When he told me that I will call it a silencer now.. :smt082

[sittinlow]

was that just me or was one of the hammers pulled back in the bottom gun?

[Jeremy Glass]

He knows that Hollywoood crap get's under my skin. Only nimrods in Hollywood call it a (ahem) silencer. I feel the same way Glidden does when someone calls it a motor.

I figured thats why was using the quotes.

[MCM]

Shotguns are great.. if you can get to them in time.. But for convenience.. I like a handgun..Here's the best of both combined:

http://serbu.com/top/superShorty.php

:cool:

[O.C White]

Both hammers are pulled back.

[sittinlow]

gunny you need some silencers, still trying to find one for the wife but you should have all the luck finding them for your pieces lol

[sittinlow]

Here's the best of both combined:

http://serbu.com/top/superShorty.php

:cool:
now thats the shit i am talking about:p

[Monty Mikho]

Hey monty,

You can also buy that smith and wesson with an internal key lock or without. And you can get it with a mag. disconnect safety(wont fire unless the mag is installed) or without, or any combo of those locks/safeties.


Sounds pretty cool.. Someone let me shoot one of their S&W 9 mm a few years ago.. I loved that gun and it was a very accurate piece.. Im not closed to buying another one.. especially at that price..

[Monty Mikho]

was that just me or was one of the hammers pulled back in the bottom gun?


Yeah he says he uses them for bottle openers..

[O.C White]

gunny you need some silencers, still trying to find one for the wife but you should have all the luck finding them for your pieces lol


Two liter Pepsi bottle works pretty good. Only good for one suppressed shot.

[sittinlow]

Both hammers are pulled back.
if you look quick the top one is hard to tell sorry drill sargent lol:p

[Monty Mikho]

Here's the best of both combined:

http://serbu.com/top/superShorty.php

:cool:


Wow that is phuckin awesome!! Thanks dude!!Wonder if its legal in Michigan? Anyone?

[sittinlow]

Two liter Pepsi bottle works pretty good. Only good for one suppressed shot.
she might choke on that i still need her alive for some things lol

[sittinlow]

still never answered my question monty

[Monty Mikho]

I have a pistol grip for my Mossberg.. I was told by a cop who came to the house (long story but I pulled the gun out and walked around the corner where he seen me thru the window :) Intresting day to say the least) that it was illegal to have that stock on the gun unless it was registered as a handgun.. I wasnt about to argue while other cops rushed into my house.. :rolleyes:

[Monty Mikho]

still never answered my question monty


What question.. I usually read other posts when you post.. :finga: :-D :-D

[O.C White]

Carl they had a Wilson a lot like yours (from what I can remember) at Firing Line today going for $1975... does that seem right?

Yep that seems about right depending on the model. 1975 for a new Wilson, that's a steal.

[Monty Mikho]

hey come on you should no me by now i never try to start a pissing match, lol, by the way what type of shot gun what the black and silver i like!!!!!


One is a Mossberg Model 590 pump
The other is a Remington 11-87 Police semi automatice.. Both are 12 gauge

[Monty Mikho]

Yep that seems about right depending on the model. 1975 for a new Wilson, that's a steal.


They have a used one there for $750 or something like that.. I dont like buying used guns because I really dont know what to look for to see if its cool or not..

[O.C White]

They have a used one there for $750 or something like that.. I dont like buying used guns because I really dont know what to look for to see if its cool or not..

This is one area I draw the line. Do not buy a used gun you never know what it might have been used for. Buying from a reputable range or dealer maybe I would think but I would have the cops run ballistic's on it for sure.

Buying a used gun and testing it is easy. if it's junk, pick it up and shake it back and forth in your hand, if it rattles like a baby rattle, it's junk.

[MCM]

Wow that is phuckin awesome!! Thanks dude!!Wonder if its legal in Michigan? Anyone?Unfortunately, I don't believe it is. The way I interpreted the AOW rules for our state it wasn't. Might want to call Serbu to clarify this though - I'm sure they would know for sure.;)

[MCM]

I have a pistol grip for my Mossberg.. I was told by a cop who came to the house (long story but I pulled the gun out and walked around the corner where he seen me thru the window :) Intresting day to say the least) that it was illegal to have that stock on the gun unless it was registered as a handgun.. I wasnt about to argue while other cops rushed into my house.. :rolleyes:I'm almost certain that was wrong. As long as the gun had at least a certain minimum length barrel (18"??) it's legal without any special licensing. They sell these guns with the pistol grips already on them as "camper" guns.

[MCM]

One is a Mossberg Model 590 pump
The other is a Remington 11-87 Police semi automatice.. Both are 12 gaugeDoes your 11-87 have a 10 shot magazine like the 1100 Remy I have (magazine is as long as the 28" barrel)?:confused:

[Monty Mikho]

I'm almost certain that was wrong. As long as the gun had at least a certain minimum length barrel (18"??) it's legal without any special licensing. They sell these guns with the pistol grips already on them as "camper" guns.


Mine came with two stocks in the box.. I explained that to him but he wasnt listening.. Like I said I was out numbered and out gunned.. So I shut my mouth and removed the handle while he watched.. I never seen a cop jump so far when he seen me coming around the corner.. In a lot of ways it was funny as hell till he yelled "drop the weapon or I will shoot"...

[MCM]

Wow that is phuckin awesome!! Thanks dude!!Wonder if its legal in Michigan? Anyone?You need to get this with it:

http://serbu.com/accessories/thigh_holster.php

:yawinkle:

[Tom McDunnah]

He knows that Hollywoood crap get's under my skin. Only nimrods in Hollywood call it a (ahem) silencer. I feel the same way Glidden does when someone calls it a motor.


Same here,I say does that motor come with an extension cord???


Its an engine folks:smt082

[MrMike990]

Wow that is phuckin awesome!! Thanks dude!!Wonder if its legal in Michigan? Anyone?



Monty, I think need to move to a "free" state. A sawed off shotgun is classified as AOW(any other weapon) and in MI looks like it's legal only if it's classifieds as a Curio and Relic. If you are interested in other stuff as well, I can tell you how to fill out the paperwork.

http://www.mp5.net/info/sbsconr.htm


http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/nfa_faq.txt

[MrMike990]

For a pistol grip shotgun the min barrel length is 16", OAL at least 26" with butt resting on floor.

[MrMike990]

Here are Gunny's Guns... (Carl Gunny that is)... The all black one is second to none.. Awesome weapon!! All it needs is a "Silencer" on it.. :smt082

Mr Whispers

[Monty Mikho]

Mr Whispers


Thats what Im talking about... Awesome piece!! Mike are you Mike990's father? If so I will be coming down to shoot with your son when the weather clears a little and I get some free weeks ahead of me.. I got some mods I wanted done on a couple of guns.. Would be awesome to shoot with both you guys.. :Party

[Monty Mikho]

Mr Whispers


Mine is over 26" with the pistol grip on it.. I think the cop was just pissed..

[Monty Mikho]

Monty, I think need to move to a "free" state. A sawed off shotgun is classified as AOW(any other weapon) and in MI looks like it's legal only if it's classifieds as a Curio and Relic. If you are interested in other stuff as well, I can tell you how to fill out the paperwork.

http://www.mp5.net/info/sbsconr.htm


http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/nfa_faq.txt


You're not kidding on that one. Mike, how does one get a federal fire arms licence? I always wanted a fully automatic weapon to play around with.. Or is it next to impossible to get one?

[Monty Mikho]

Monty, I think need to move to a "free" state. A sawed off shotgun is classified as AOW(any other weapon) and in MI looks like it's legal only if it's classifieds as a Curio and Relic. If you are interested in other stuff as well, I can tell you how to fill out the paperwork.

http://www.mp5.net/info/sbsconr.htm


http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/nfa_faq.txt


It looks like getting a C&R will allow me to get a fully automatic weapon? It shows yes in the michigan area but has a side note.. I'll keep reading.. Very interested

[N2Ojunkie]

Jim,

if you think those local store prices are crazy take my advice, stay away from customs.
LOL..

I know it is just that the few local shops mark things up excessively. And I am 45 minutes from from Columbus where the prices for the same pieces are usually a couple hundred cheaper.

[MrMike990]

It looks like getting a C&R will allow me to get a fully automatic weapon? It shows yes in the michigan area but has a side note.. I'll keep reading.. Very interested

Monty, for NFA items including anything on the C&R list you still have to have it transfered from/through a NFA dealer. The C&R FFl allows one to buy and receive firearms that have been classified as "antique" by BATF without going through a regular FFL dealer.


You don't need an FFl to possees an automatic weapons or silencers. If you live in a state that allows those items it's a matter of getting the chief law enforcement officer(CLEO) in your area to sign off on the forms, being fingerprinted, paying the $200 fee and sending off the application and the prints to the BATF.



Here's generally how it works, assuming your CLEO will sign off on the forms.

1. Find an NFA item you're interested in, let's say a MAC9 for $3500. That NFA dealer may or may not request a deposit.

2. Visit your local NFA dealer and tell him that you want him/her to do a NFA transfer. You are at the mercy of what he/she charges, some are as low as $30, some as high as 10% of the item purchase price. They will want the S/N as they will need it for the forms.

3. Go down the police station have have your prints taken and request 2 copies on FBI print cards. If you can, have the CLEO sign off on the forms at the same time. I usually will write a "character" letter explaining background and my reason for needing this item, aka "investment purposes" ;-)

4. Go back to your NFA dealer with the signed off forms and fingerprint cards. He will request full payment (his transfer fee, item cost, +$200 BATF application fee) , if he hasn't already done so.

5. He will send off the forms to the ATF with your $200 M.O. and he will send the seller $3500.

6. Once the NFA seller receives payment he can then transfer the MAC9 to your local NFA dealer.

7. From receipt of payment it takes anywhere from 90-120 days for the FBI /BATF to run the background check and process the paperwork and return your tax stamp. Depending upon your local laws an ATF agent may request a site visit or you may have to register it or notify your state police as well. The scheduled visit is painless, as really all they want to see is that you have a secure storage place.

8. The BATF will send the completed paper work and tax stamp to your local NFA dealer.

9. Visit your local NFA dealer, he will then transfer the MAC9 to you. The tax stamp or a copy should be kept with the item. If you lose the tax stamp you are SOL.


Possessing NFA items without the tax stamp can and will get one locked up.

[fasteach]

Monty...look into paperwork called a "form 4". I'm pretty sure Mrmike990 knows what i'm talking about.

[O.C White]

MrMike,

why did you have to say "Silencer"? Very good information, but that word.

[MCM]

Monty, for NFA items including anything on the C&R list you still have to have it transfered from/through a NFA dealer. The C&R FFl allows one to buy and receive firearms that have been classified as "antique" by BATF without going through a regular FFL dealer.


You don't need an FFl to possees an automatic weapons or silencers. If you live in a state that allows those items it's a matter of getting the chief law enforcement officer(CLEO) in your area to sign off on the forms, being fingerprinted, paying the $200 fee and sending off the application and the prints to the BATF.



Here's generally how it works, assuming your CLEO will sign off on the forms.

1. Find an NFA item you're interested in, let's say a MAC9 for $3500. That NFA dealer may or may not request a deposit.

2. Visit your local NFA dealer and tell him that you want him/her to do a NFA transfer. You are at the mercy of what he/she charges, some are as low as $30, some as high as 10% of the item purchase price. They will want the S/N as they will need it for the forms.

3. Go down the police station have have your prints taken and request 2 copies on FBI print cards. If you can, have the CLEO sign off on the forms at the same time. I usually will write a "character" letter explaining background and my reason for needing this item, aka "investment purposes" ;-)

4. Go back to your NFA dealer with the signed off forms and fingerprint cards. He will request full payment (his transfer fee, item cost, +$200 BATF application fee) , if he hasn't already done so.

5. He will send off the forms to the ATF with your $200 M.O. and he will send the seller $3500.

6. Once the NFA seller receives payment he can then transfer the MAC9 to your local NFA dealer.

7. From receipt of payment it takes anywhere from 90-120 days for the FBI /BATF to run the background check and process the paperwork and return your tax stamp. Depending upon your local laws an ATF agent may request a site visit or you may have to register it or notify your state police as well. The scheduled visit is painless, as really all they want to see is that you have a secure storage place.

8. The BATF will send the completed paper work and tax stamp to your local NFA dealer.

9. Visit your local NFA dealer, he will then transfer the MAC9 to you. The tax stamp or a copy should be kept with the item. If you lose the tax stamp you are SOL.


Possessing NFA items without the tax stamp can and will get one locked up.Silencers (oops, I meant sound suppressors) are not allowed in Michigan. Class III firearms I believe are though, as long as they conform to existing state laws for "regular" firearms (for one, it has to have a minimum overall length of I believe 26", with a folding stock folded). No SBR's (short barreled rifles), Class III or not, are allowed in Michigan. Damn communist state.:mad:

[MCM]

Monty, open this up and go to page 186:

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/publications/firearms.pdf

[MrMike990]

MrMike,

why did you have to say "Silencer"? Very good information, but that word.

Yeah, yeah....suppressor or as my overseas buddies call them, sound moderators.

[Donut]

Damn communist state.:mad:

Try living in California... They ban so much stuff, it's crazy. In my county, I can't get a CCW permit unless I have a notarized death threat. Yay Kalifornia.

Gunny, where do you shoot? On base? I have a membership to the range right off base, in Oceanside... Iron Sights.


My inherited Colt Police Positive Special:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y131/guttedhatch/PolicePositive.jpg

and my new Glock 19:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y131/guttedhatch/g19HST.jpg

[Monty Mikho]

Try living in California... They ban so much stuff, it's crazy. In my county, I can't get a CCW permit unless I have a notarized death threat. Yay Kalifornia.

Gunny, where do you shoot? On base? I have a membership to the range right off base, in Oceanside... Iron Sights.


My inherited Colt Police Positive Special:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y131/guttedhatch/PolicePositive.jpg

and my new Glock 19:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y131/guttedhatch/g19HST.jpg

I shot with Maliboost and Gunny at Iron Sights just a few weeks ago. Pretty decent place but damn why all the paperwork.. :-D

[Monty Mikho]

I just got back from Target Sports.

JG, the S&W M&P 40 caliber was being used when I got there. They had a 9 mm one but I was not interested in a 9 mm. I will head back up there in a few weeks earlier to fire that gun. They had a lot of good things to say about it..

Gunny, again I wanna thanks ya for all your help. I passed the tips on to David and damn the phucker can group shots now at 15 & 20 feet.. I put 4 1" dots on the target (forehead, throat, #10 on the chest and the base of the spine) and he was able to hit them all with the Sig 226 and 229.. The S&W was not a good fit for him nor was the Kimber.

I did not shoot but around 50 rounds today. I pretty much wanted David to know how to be a better shot. I feel a lot safer around him now :D

[O.C White]

Gunny, again I wanna thanks ya for all your help

No problem Monty, glad I could help, wish we could work together more.

[Monty Mikho]

No problem Monty, glad I could help, wish we could work together more.


You and me both... :(

[O.C White]

I would like to show you some draw techniques, that is where it's at.

[Donut]

I shot with Maliboost and Gunny at Iron Sights just a few weeks ago. Pretty decent place but damn why all the paperwork.. :-D

No Shit? It's a small world.

I was there last night, and will be there tomorrow night as well. I seem to be shooting a a bit to the left and a little down with the new Glock, and throwing more flyers than I'd like. Granted, I only have 350 rounds through the G19 in two trips to the range, but still. It's all about the practice.

[O.C White]

No Shit? It's a small world.

I was there last night, and will be there tomorrow night as well. I seem to be shooting a a bit to the left and a little down with the new Glock, and throwing more flyers than I'd like. Granted, I only have 350 rounds through the G19 in two trips to the range, but still. It's all about the practice.

Hey Donut,

if you need help I can pm you cell number and i can meet you there tonight if you want the help.

Let me know.

[MrMike990]

I would like to show you some draw techniques, that is where it's at.


Check this out

http://www.idpa.com

[O.C White]

Check this out

http://www.idpa.com


I shot a couple of matches with the IDPA way back in 97-99. It got to be addicting. Sort of what Monty is going through right now. :-D

[Monty Mikho]

I shot a couple of matches with the IDPA way back in 97-99. It got to be addicting. Sort of what Monty is going through right now. :-D

They say smoking is addictive.. I will drop that habit in a heart beat if given a choice between inhaling cigarette smoke over gun powder smoke.. Honestly the most challenging thing I have ever done.. Im working on 1" dots over 25 feet in 8 locations right now and am stuggling with hitting all 8 on center.. But I can hit them somewhere within the 1" circle or grazing it.. Am I pushing it too far? Maybe.... but damn its fun.. I need to start reloading my own ammo at this rate.. I have probably went thru 4000 rounds this month.. :p

[O.C White]

They say smoking is addictive.. I will drop that habit in a heart beat if given a choice between inhaling cigarette smoke over gun powder smoke.. Honestly the most challenging thing I have ever done.. Im working on 1" dots over 25 feet in 8 locations right now and am stuggling with hitting all 8 on center.. But I can hit them somewhere within the 1" circle or grazing it.. Am I pushing it too far? Maybe.... but damn its fun.. I need to start reloading my own ammo at this rate.. I have probably went thru 4000 rounds this month.. :p

Monty,

you're being to hard on yourself and pushing. Shot group's are only measured in 3's. If the first 3 are tight. You're locked in.

[Monty Mikho]

Monty,

you're being to hard on yourself and pushing. Shot group's are only measured in 3's. If the first 3 are tight. You're locked in.


I can group pretty decent now... Im more or less trying to figure out sighting and being deadly accurate with it.

At Target today I asked the guy if he had Les, Ed or Wilsons there.. He said he only carried NightHawks and they were better.. I know he is mostly likely saying that because its what he carries in the store.. I shot one of these things in Utah (rental) and that is the gun that ejected shells at my head. You guys have any opinions on these things? He said they were 100% custom hand built guns..

[FLYIN4D]

www.accuratereloading.com (http://www.accuratereloading.com)

Some serious shit!

[O.C White]

I can group pretty decent now... Im more or less trying to figure out sighting and being deadly accurate with it.

At Target today I asked the guy if he had Les, Ed or Wilsons there.. He said he only carried NightHawks and they were better.. I know he is mostly likely saying that because its what he carries in the store.. I shot one of these things in Utah (rental) and that is the gun that ejected shells at my head. You guys have any opinions on these things? He said they were 100% custom hand built guns..

Never really kept up much with Nighhawk. If the name sounds to cartoonish, I usually do not keep up with it. Kimber simple, Sig simple, Springfield simple, Nighthawk sounds like a Super hero cartoon character.

[Monty Mikho]

Never really kept up much with Nighhawk. If the name sounds to cartoonish, I usually do not keep up with it. Kimber simple, Sig simple, Springfield simple, Nighthawk sounds like a Super hero cartoon character.

LMFAO.. Thats some funny shit... He said the guns started out at $2000.. All I could think was I could have a Wilson or Les for that much..

[O.C White]

I can group pretty decent now... Im more or less trying to figure out sighting and being deadly accurate with it.

Keep shooting the tacks like we did at Iron Sights except when you tried to throw me off.

Old Monty here takes a clear headed tack and put's it dead center of the target for me and say's "shoot that" took about 8 shots and I finally hit. Old slick here takes a clear headed tack and put's it on the black line of the target so you can see it real clear, took him about 3-4 shots to hit it (cheating prick :-D)

I took a tack and put it on the black line and it took one shot.

[Monty Mikho]

Keep shooting the tacks like we did at Iron Sights except when you tried to throw me off.

Old Monty here takes a clear headed tack and put's it dead center of the target for me and say's "shoot that" took about 8 shots and I finally hit. Old slick here takes a clear headed tack and put's it on the black line of the target so you can see it real clear, took him about 3-4 shots to hit it (cheating prick :-D)

I took a tack and put it on the black line and it took one shot.

Hey I wasnt gonna say anything but now you did.. Im color blind so it doesnt matter where the tack was.. I couldn't see the phucker anyway.. :p Carl I told the story today again about you shooting right then left handed hitting the target dead on.. Im still in awww about that.. Crazy shit for sure.. Dont forget that you knocked that chicks teeth out to.. That was very impressive as well.. Im not in the same league as you.. But Im trying my hardest to look better next time..

[Donut]

Speaking of IDPA, they have monthly matches at Iron Sights. I bought a Blade-Tech OWB injection-molded holster and mag carrier with the intention of getting into that, once i think I can shoot well enough to not embarass myself.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y131/guttedhatch/g19holster.jpg

Gunny, I wish I could make it tonight, but all my gear is at home, which is two hours from the office, and another 45 from the range. I'll be there tomorrow night taking a class. After NMRA GA, I'll be heading down there at least once a week, probably on Thursday evenings (IDPA practice nights, and I get to work from home most Fridays.

I'm always open to some help. Thanks Gunny!

[Monty Mikho]

Some advice and tips from you guys.. Besides actually shooting rounds.. Is there other ways to practice? Gunny told me about the dime trick.. and have been practicing that.. anything else to help lock in on the target better and quicker?

[O.C White]

One hand drills help a bit. The only part about it, you have to be honest with yourself. One hand drills that I came up with is you put a target against the wall of your house(pistol unloaded of course) and see how long you can hold the front sight on there before you start wobbling.

Hand grip exercisers are another great training tool. Work on your grip with both hands and it's easy to do especially if watching TV. Work one hand until a commercial, then switch to the other hand until the next commerical. Of course take breaks during the commercial.

Will strengthen your wrist, your grip and your forearms, because that is what really makes for good tight groups a solid foundation.

[Monty Mikho]

One hand drills help a bit. The only part about it, you have to be honest with yourself. One hand drills that I came up with is you put a target against the wall of your house(pistol unloaded of course) and see how long you can hold the front sight on there before you start wobbling.

Hand grip exercisers are another great training tool. Work on your grip with both hands and it's easy to do especially if watching TV. Work one hand until a commercial, then switch to the other hand until the next commerical. Of course take breaks during the commercial.

Will strengthen your wrist, your grip and your forearms, because that is what really makes for good tight groups a solid foundation.


Carl are you talking about one of these? Or the old walnut cracker kinds?


http://www.painreliever.com/xmodels/painreliever/IMC100h.jpg

[Monty Mikho]

BTW the above will help with my guitar playing skills again.. Yes Im back into that as well..

[MrMike990]

Some advice and tips from you guys.. Besides actually shooting rounds.. Is there other ways to practice? Gunny told me about the dime trick.. and have been practicing that.. anything else to help lock in on the target better and quicker?

Monty, I like to start with the basics. Things such as body mechanics, eye dominance and breathing.

Here's a suggestion if you are really serious and you no longer have to travel to my neck of the woods either.

http://www.blackwaterusa.com/training/bwn_courses.asp

http://www.blackwaterusa.com/training/classes/3_Day_Basic_Pistol.asp

[O.C White]

Carl are you talking about one of these? Or the old walnut cracker kinds?


http://www.painreliever.com/xmodels/painreliever/IMC100h.jpg



That's what I got, works wonder for the grip.

[MrMike990]

BTW the above will help with my guitar playing skills again.. Yes Im back into that as well..

We have a lot in common. I don't really mess with it much anymore. I have some rack gear that I may get rid of and I most likely will sell my like new Eventide H3000S, it has all the Steve Vai presets.

[Monty Mikho]

Monty, I like to start with the basics. Things such as body mechanics, eye dominance and breathing.

Here's a suggestion if you are really serious and you no longer have to travel to my neck of the woods either.

http://www.blackwaterusa.com/training/bwn_courses.asp

http://www.blackwaterusa.com/training/classes/3_Day_Basic_Pistol.asp

Sad part is my dominate eye is left and I am a right handed shooter.. I stand sideways (more like a 45* angle) and have not had a problem with shooting that way so far. Body mechanics I believe Carl would be a better judge at that as he was watching.. He gave me what is wanted and need as far as that goes. Breathing? I usually am exhaling and hold it for a moment when I pull the trigger.. Which leads me to another question.. Have part of the finger is best to pull the trigger with? Finger tip or the first joint or the abouts.. or does it not matter.. For me it seems that using my finger tip (I guess between the finger tip and 1st joint) I have a little more control.. Maybe its just me.. Im still working on grip from one gun to the next. Me and Gunny have gone over a few things on this and it has really helped a ton. I will read both links for sure.. Im willing to learn.. if someone is willing to show.. What may be basic to some shooters may be a mystery to me.. So take nothing for granted.. I truely appreciate the help guys.. I really do..

[Monty Mikho]

We have a lot in common. I don't really mess with it much anymore. I have some rack gear that I may get rid of and I most likely will sell my like new Eventide H3000S, it has all the Steve Vai presets.


Damn, Tom on this site has a Marshall Stack Steve Vai edition he is getting rid of that I want. I went shopping the other day for a new Jackson.. I wanted something US made.. Good luck.. They look at me like Im ET asking for something US made anymore.. I have a BC Rich (USA), Ibanez Accustic AW-10, Gibson V (USA), Krammer (Jap crap) and just bought a Jackson (Jap crap).. I also at the time picked up a AVT-275 Marshall practice amp.. With a Boss ME-50 Multi-Effects.. If you want to get rid of the Eventide H3000S rack let me know what you you want for it.. PM me or post here.. either way..

[Monty Mikho]

That's what I got, works wonder for the grip.


Very cool.. I will get one.. :)

[Monty Mikho]

BTW I love this site.. If ya have a hobby.. There is always someone here who can help out with tips and answers!! Im happy..

[Monty Mikho]

http://www.blackwaterusa.com/training/classes/3_Day_Basic_Pistol.asp

Is this where I should start? I noticed there is a class before this one.. Is that needed or is that for someone who is totally green?

[O.C White]

Monty,

on the finger placement, whatever is comfortable for you is the main worry. You will hear finger tip, you will hear entire first joint, anything. Whatever makes you comfortable and feel comfortable.

On the breathing, remember this, and I always try to go off real life scenario stuff, are you going to be relaxed when the real deal goes down? Nope, your heart rate is going to go through the roof, and you will have an adrenaline overload happening that may cause some mechanical functions to shut down, you will have to learn to control that.

When you go to shoot, just go at it at the comfort level you are at because training and real life will ever match up 100%.

[Monty Mikho]

Monty,

on the finger placement, whatever is comfortable for you is the main worry. You will hear finger tip, you will hear entire first joint, anything. Whatever makes you comfortable and feel comfortable.

On the breathing, remember this, and I always try to go off real life scenario stuff, are you going to be relaxed when the real deal goes down? Nope, your heart rate is going to go through the roof, and you will have an adrenaline overload happening that may cause some mechanical functions to shut down, you will have to learn to control that.

When you go to shoot, just go at it at the comfort level you are at because training and real life will ever match up 100%.

I hear ya on the adrenaline stuff. Like you said all one can do is get comfortable with what they have and practice practice practice.. I tired both ways today and it almost seemed like the further I stuck my finger into the trigger the more I seemed to fire off target. Im glad there isnt a right way in that case.. Cause Im off the other way.. :p

[Ed Kurzawa]

Monty, when are you going shooting next?

[Monty Mikho]

Monty, when are you going shooting next?


Im going this Saturday.. In Toledo Ohio..

[O.C White]

I hear ya on the adrenaline stuff. Like you said all one can do is get comfortable with what they have and practice practice practice.. I tired both ways today and it almost seemed like the further I stuck my finger into the trigger the more I seemed to fire off target. Im glad there isnt a right way in that case.. Cause Im off the other way.. :p

The only comfort you should have is having the ability to employ that weapon and being comfortable using it with the ability to hit and stop the threat.

[Ed Kurzawa]

Im going this Saturday.. In Toledo Ohio..


Reason i asked is i might go tomorrow, i took the day off of work so i can enjoy a full day of doing whatever i please, for a change.

[Monty Mikho]

The only comfort you should have is having the ability to employ that weapon and being comfortable using it with the ability to hit and stop the threat.


I remember in class there was a 773 rule

7 seconds to gather the ability to think
7 second to grab your gun
3 second to point and shoot..

I believe thats how it went.. This was an average time of what it took people to shoot under a high street situation.. I know this sounds high and Im sure people can do better.. I will not personally argue this statistic .. I practice to shut my car off and do all the right stuff in the event something happens.. Well when something happened (car caught fire at around 165 MPH) all my training went out the window and I went brain dead.. It took me what seemed a life time to react... The car came to almost a complete stop before I pulled the off switch, undid my belts and window net to get the phuck outta there... I know I know.. Everyone else can do better..

[Monty Mikho]

Reason i asked is i might go tomorrow, i took the day off of work so i can enjoy a full day of doing whatever i please, for a change.


Sure do it when I have shit to do.. I went Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and today.. Where the phuck was everyone at then?

[Monty Mikho]

Oh yeah there was an FFF rule to.. Fire till the Fucker Falls :p

[Ed Kurzawa]

Sure do it when I have shit to do.. I went Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and today.. Where the phuck was everyone at then?


WORK:mad:

[MCM]

I remember in class there was a 773 rule

7 seconds to gather the ability to think
7 second to grab your gun
3 second to point and shoot..

I believe thats how it went.. This was an average time of what it took people to shoot under a high street situation.. I know this sounds high and Im sure people can do better.. I will not personally argue this statistic .. I practice to shut my car off and do all the right stuff in the event something happens.. Well when something happened (car caught fire at around 165 MPH) all my training went out the window and I went brain dead.. It took me what seemed a life time to react... The car came to almost a complete stop before I pulled the off switch, undid my belts and window net to get the phuck outta there... I know I know.. Everyone else can do better..It seems way high to me - you can be killed easily within that time frame. Count the number of seconds it takes this guy to draw and shoot 2 people (one perp already has a gun pointed to his head):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmKR6evZRQQ

I know it's just a movie, but the director of Collateral (Michael Mann) had Tom Cruise take a weeks long, hands on tactical defense training program with a highly regarded personal trainer, long before the movie began filming, and his gun handling/shooting techniques throughout the movie are very real.

[Monty Mikho]

It seems way high to me - you can be killed easily within that time frame. Count the number of seconds it takes this guy to draw and shoot 2 people (one perp already has a gun pointed to his head):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmKR6evZRQQ

I know it's just a movie, but the director of Collateral (Michael Mann) had Tom Cruise take a weeks long, hands on tactical defense training program with a highly regarded personal trainer, long before the movie began filming, and his gun handling/shooting techniques throughout the movie are very real.


That is the point.. If you are being robbed at gun point.. and he has his weapon drawn.. you have slim to none chance of getting to him no matter how many times you have drawn your weapon from your holster in the mirror making bam noises. A guy in our class could draw in around 1-2 seconds maybe less.. he was quick.. He was dead quick.. But the teacher guaranteed him if he was just walking down the road and someone jumps out in front of him that his mind and body would not react as quick.. And I have to agree with the teacher on this one.. Unless you have been in a hostile situation.. its tuff to say..

[O.C White]

To the untrained eye, it looks like Tom Cruise did a lot. You can definitely tell Micheal Mann takes his movies serious.

Okay here is what I noticed. Tom Cruise closed the distance between him and his targets notice the loser with the pistol turned sideways, and 2nd the other bozo couldn't get his drawn in time.

Textbook close quarter kill.

[Monty Mikho]

i watched the movie.. that is awesome.. Things always come together when you expect them.. the 773 rule applies to when you dont expect anything coming.. Kinda like someone scaring the shit out of you when you walk around a corner.. You freeze.. till you figure out its a joke.. But if it wasnt a joke.. I can imagine the shit that would be going thru someones head.. Will I die, will I see my kids, why me, what the phuck am I gonna do.. All that shit takes time.. You get tunnel vision.. You cant think straight.. it sucks..

Gunny may be able to handle it a little better as he has probably been in these situations.. But at war you are always alert.. He probably still is.. But for us average clowns.. We have no idea what the next minute holds.. Last thing we think about is we are going to be robbed.. shot.. or get hit by a semi..

[MCM]

To the untrained eye, it looks like Tom Cruise did a lot. You can definitely tell Micheal Mann takes his movies serious.

Okay here is what I noticed. Tom Cruise closed the distance between him and his targets notice the loser with the pistol turned sideways, and 2nd the other bozo couldn't get his drawn in time.

Textbook close quarter kill.A few other points to add... He immediately grabbed the wrist of the first attacker with his "weak" hand to prevent himself from being shot while he reached for his own weapon. This is a prime example of why it so important that you are able to draw and fire with only the use of ONE hand. Another point... after he drew his gun, he immediately anchored his lower right arm against his waist and just point fired 2 shots directly in his center mass (perfect form for this close encounter).

[O.C White]

To touch on a point MCM touched on everyone has a weak hand. To make this as simple as possible if you are right handed guess which hand is your weak hand? Yep you guessed it, your left hand unless you are ambidextrious. I am not as strong left hand as right handed but I am comfortable shooting with either hand.

[MCM]

i watched the movie.. that is awesome.. Things always come together when you expect them.. the 773 rule applies to when you dont expect anything coming.. Kinda like someone scaring the shit out of you when you walk around a corner.. You freeze.. till you figure out its a joke.. But if it wasnt a joke.. I can imagine the shit that would be going thru someones head.. Will I die, will I see my kids, why me, what the phuck am I gonna do.. All that shit takes time.. You get tunnel vision.. You cant think straight.. it sucks..

Gunny may be able to handle it a little better as he has probably been in these situations.. But at war you are always alert.. He probably still is.. But for us average clowns.. We have no idea what the next minute holds.. Last thing we think about is we are going to be robbed.. shot.. or get hit by a semi..So true. It's easy to sit hear and talk about what you'd do in a given situation, but when you're suddenly involved in one, you will more than likely be caught offguard and freeze up. That's why it's wise to constantly practice your shooting skills whenever you can and always stay alert to your surroundings to help you better handle a sudden "stress" situation.

[Monty Mikho]

but I am comfortable shooting with either hand.


and as accurate.. :p

[Monty Mikho]

So true. It's easy to sit hear and talk about what you'd do in a given situation, but when you're suddenly involved in one, you will more than likely be caught offguard and freeze up. That's why it's wise to constantly practice your shooting skills whenever you can and always stay alert to your surroundings to help you better handle a sudden "stress" situation.


Im always stressed dammit!!! :p

[MCM]

Im always stressed dammit!!! :pX2.;)

[O.C White]

and as accurate.. :p

Same principal applies both hands. Sight alignment, trigger control, follow through. Well there isn't much follow through when you switch hands in the middle of recoil. :-D

[Shelton_Barrs]

Here's the best of both combined:

http://serbu.com/top/superShorty.php

:cool:

sweet...I like that.

[Shelton_Barrs]

Some advice and tips from you guys.. Besides actually shooting rounds.. Is there other ways to practice? Gunny told me about the dime trick.. and have been practicing that.. anything else to help lock in on the target better and quicker?

Monty or Carl,
What is the "dime trick"? Will be getting back into shooting some in the not to distant future and I am looking to get back to work on basic skills.

Also, several years ago I got "decent" with a rifle. In shooting it I could tell the difference in my groups between a "clean" barrel and after it had 3-4 rounds through it. Then it would be steady until after about 10 or 12 rounds. I realise that we are talking drastic differences in distance and conditions but can you tell much difference in your groups with a pistol?

[MrMike990]

A few other points to add... He immediately grabbed the wrist of the first attacker with his "weak" hand to prevent himself from being shot while he reached for his own weapon. This is a prime example of why it so important that you are able to draw and fire with only the use of ONE hand. Another point... after he drew his gun, he immediately anchored his lower right arm against his waist and just point fired 2 shots directly in his center mass (perfect form for this close encounter).

Blocking, trapping and locking up

[MrMike990]

Is this where I should start? I noticed there is a class before this one.. Is that needed or is that for someone who is totally green?

Yes, "Basic Pistol" is my suggestion, it gives you two extra days of practical application.

[O.C White]

Monty or Carl,
What is the "dime trick"? Will be getting back into shooting some in the not to distant future and I am looking to get back to work on basic skills.

The "dime drill" is where you take an ordinary dime, place it on the front sight of your pistol hopefully the front sight is flat enough to let it sit there, and you dry fire.

If the dime falls you are doing something wrong, if it stays put you have good trigger control.

[Shelton_Barrs]

The "dime drill" is where you take an ordinary dime, place it on the front sight of your pistol hopefully the front sight is flat enough to let it sit there, and you dry fire.

If the dime falls you are doing something wrong, if it stays put you have good trigger control.

Sorry about calling it a "trick" instead of a "drill"... been working nights and days, (up 28 hrs straight at the moment) so my head is a little foggy....after some sleep I will be working on the dime drill and thanks.

[O.C White]

Sorry about calling it a "trick" instead of a "drill"... been working nights and days, (up 28 hrs straight at the moment) so my head is a little foggy....after some sleep I will be working on the dime drill and thanks.

HUH? Oh I wasn't correcting that just explaining how it works. You didn't do anything wrong Shelton.

[Donut]

Sad part is my dominate eye is left and I am a right handed shooter.. I stand sideways (more like a 45* angle) and have not had a problem with shooting that way so far. Body mechanics I believe Carl would be a better judge at that as he was watching.. He gave me what is wanted and need as far as that goes. Breathing? I usually am exhaling and hold it for a moment when I pull the trigger.. Which leads me to another question.. Have part of the finger is best to pull the trigger with? Finger tip or the first joint or the abouts.. or does it not matter.. For me it seems that using my finger tip (I guess between the finger tip and 1st joint) I have a little more control.. Maybe its just me.. Im still working on grip from one gun to the next. Me and Gunny have gone over a few things on this and it has really helped a ton. I will read both links for sure.. Im willing to learn.. if someone is willing to show.. What may be basic to some shooters may be a mystery to me.. So take nothing for granted.. I truely appreciate the help guys.. I really do..


Monty, I too am cross-dominant (Left eye, right hand). I took a class on Friday night, and the first thing the instructor noticed was that. Then he told me that unless I have bullets flying at me, I need to be squared up to the target with the cross-dominance. After 50 rounds through a Kimber, we figured that it was indeed the trigger pull of the Glock that was causing me to shoot left. So I "choked-up" in the trigger and now use my first distal joint instead of the pad, and my shots are much more centered now.

Gunny, we should definately meet up at Iron Sights after the Georgia race.

[O.C White]

Gunny, we should definately meet up at Iron Sights after the Georgia race.

Give me a time and a date.

[Monty Mikho]

Monty, I too am cross-dominant (Left eye, right hand). I took a class on Friday night, and the first thing the instructor noticed was that. Then he told me that unless I have bullets flying at me, I need to be squared up to the target with the cross-dominance. After 50 rounds through a Kimber, we figured that it was indeed the trigger pull of the Glock that was causing me to shoot left. So I "choked-up" in the trigger and now use my first distal joint instead of the pad, and my shots are much more centered now.

Gunny, we should definately meet up at Iron Sights after the Georgia race.


I cannot stand square to my target. I am very far off that way. I stand at around a 45* angle.. I wanna go shooting to dammit!!!

[O.C White]

I combine a combination of Weaver stance and Isoceles stance.

[Monty Mikho]

I combine a combination of Weaver stance and Isoceles stance.


Show off!!!

[O.C White]

No not really, it's what makes you comfortable, or semi comfortable. Since I got arms like an orangatan, I have to do something. If i stand with the Isoceles look's like the pistol is 3 miles away.

If I use weaver, I have to torque my back foot so far back, it creates un-needed stress.