Converting a MS Sportsman cage to 25.5

[Saleen91]

I've got a 1991 Mustang coupe that I'm looking at possibly upgrading my cage from a mild steel sportsman cage (passed certification) to 25.5. My Sportsman cage is a little bit more than some I've seen as I do have:


kicker bars that go in from the main hoop and tie into the sub frame connectors
forward strut bars that tie the front frame rails and connect back to the main forward down bars
dash bar


From what I think I know of the 25.5 spec I would need rocker bars and x-bars for each door bar, a funny car cage/helmet bar setup, and a lower cross bar at the bottom of the main hoop.

I've talked to 1 local chassis shop that has some some work on my car in the past. They charge a premium and do good work, and they're the only chassis shop that's seen my car. They said that they would have to cut the roof off of my car do convert it to 25.5. That seemed a bit excessive to me, but I know it would make their job a whole lot easier if the roof was off.

Having said all of that I'm curious if a 25.5 conversion, that will pass inspection, can be done to my car without cutting the roof off and what kind of price range is reasonable to pay for a conversion like this? I know I can't be the only person to have been in this situation, so hopefully somebody can share some knowledge. :)

[Injected65]

My car was 25.5'd from scratch and the roof was never taken off. Like you said it does make things easier, but on the fox cars it would mean a ton of bodywork after it was done. Sorry I can't comment on the conversion cost though.

Chris

[Saleen91]

That brings up something I forgot to mention. The shop that I talked to said it would actually be easier for them to do a 25.5 from scratch if my current cage wasn't even in there as they could cut holes in the floor, drop the cage down to weld the top up, and then raise it up and weld plates in. My current cage already has that done, so they can't drop it down thru the floor to weld the top...hence their suggestion to cut the roof off.

[Injected65]

I don't think my cage was dropped down through the floor, but I wasn't around to watch it done either. I had a 12pt MS cage previously too, but it was pretty scary so after an hour with a sawsall it was in a pile on the floor and went back with all new CM.

Chris

[GRIFFIN]

The chassis shop was telling you like it is, it's much easier to build a 25.5 cage in a empty shell. Allthough I think cutting the roof off on that type of car is a little extreme. I can not say for sure because I have not seen your car, but usually you can still do the job it is just more difficult. However, if you know this shop and you trust them, then you probably would be better off cutting the cage out and doing a whole new one. I'm sure they have a reason for telling you to cut off the roof, but I'd rather install a new cage.

[radialcoupe]

the roof was not cut off my coupe when i had the 25.5 done.

chris

[Injected65]

I think cutting the roof off is much more common on the 94+ cars as the pillars are covered with cosmetic panels and you don't have to worry about body work. With a fox, you would have a good about of work to get the welds smoothed down and looking unaltered.

Chris

[GRIFFIN]

I agree with injected65, on the 94 and newer body styles it's pretty simple to do the roofs. But, personally, I do not like to do the fox bodys like that. It just adds more work in the end.

[Team Z]

I dont cut the roofs off, it's a little harder to weld but the time savings is worth it!

[Saleen91]

Yeah if this was a 94+ no problem...but on a 91, that's going to add significant cost to a 25.5 upgrade if I have to do body work and repaint the roof.

Well since nobody has mentioned it, and it sounds like we have some chassis guys in here...what's an average figure to do a sportsman to 25.5 upgrade? I'm not looking for a "best buddy hook-up" price, nor do I want the "this guy is a dick with more money than GOD" price...because in all honesty, I no fricken CLUE on how much something like this should cost.

[GRIFFIN]

It varys in price from car to car. Depending on how the cage was built that is in it. You can figure $1500 on the low side to about $3500 on the high side. I know this is a wide range, but without seeing how your car is built, I can't really say. From the way you described it, you will probably be in the $1500 to $2000 range. Along with the funny car cage, X-brace in doors and the extra braces on the main hoop, you will need rocker bars and braces between them and your subframe connectors (assuming they are installed in a manor useable for a 25.5 set up). You will also need a front and rear crossmember that has to tie into your main structure (like your rocker bars). You will also need a roof diagonal bar. And depending on if your floor has been altered, you may need an X-brace between your subframe connectors.
Maybe if you posted some pics of your car, I could give you a little better idea. As well as the other guys that are on here. Chassis guys on here are not saying many prices because it is hard to say without seeing what we have to deal with.

hope this helps.

[Saleen91]

Awesome info Griffin, thanks!

I had no idea if this was a $1000 job or a $5000 job...so your range is narrower than mine. :)

I'll snap some pics tomorrow as I'll be working on the car installing my new axles.

[noslix]

Ben,

I didn't cut my roof off to update my car to 25.5. Joe Garza just had his white car updated to 25.5 last week here in Houston. The price was very reasonable(around $1500 I think). It was someone that Eric Stubbs knew and deals with. I'll get the guy's number for you.

[Silverback]

I think that a lot of you answering the question are missing the point…. Yes, you or your friend may have gone with a 25.2 without any cutting, but that doesn’t mean that he won’t have to. Same with the cost… it depends on what you want to end up with, what is in the car now and how thorough a job they plan on doing.

The fact is that with most cages, and especially with all the bars in a 25.2, there are a lot of welds tight against the roof or other parts of the body. Yea, usually you can get them welded OK or mostly without doing any cutting, but anyone that has done this and tried to keep the bars tight to the body could look at most cages, even in a fully upholstered car and know exactly where the check the welds to see if holes were cut in the floor or the roof was cut to make room to get the work perfect. The fact is that unless you make some room to move around, you’ll never have a perfect weld all the way around a bar that it up against the body. There are even previsions in the rules for this (for example, some joints can be gusseted if you can’t get a weld all the way around the joint).

That being said, some of this can be avoided if you’re starting from scratch, since you can avoid most of the mess by tacking together the main hoop and back half, tilting the whole thing forward and then running all the welds, and doing the opposite with the front half, and then you only end up with 2-4 difficult welds to put the 2 together.

It sounds to me like whoever you’ve talked to is having a hard time compromising the finished quality, which is the reason they’re talking about cutting the top. Personally, if you’re going to go to that kind of detail, unless what is already there is _really_ well done or irreplaceable for some reason, I think it would be much easier and less work to cut out what’s there and start over then cut the roof on a fox… but of course, I haven’t seen what’s there and where it’s going.

[Saleen91]

Thanks for your input...after having talked to another shop, and some fellow racers about my situation, I think it'll be a wash (money and work wise) just to cut this cage out and start over with a moly cage that's 25.x.

[qwiknotch]

Not ot mention that I believe to get the 25.5 cert, it has to be Chrome Moly....

but I could be wrong.... Maybe just the 25.2 has to be moly,

[Saleen91]

25.5 can be MS, but 25.2 has to be moly.

[dizope]

Not ot mention that I believe to get the 25.5 cert, it has to be Chrome Moly....

but I could be wrong.... Maybe just the 25.2 has to be moly,
I thought the same thing.

[joesmithz28]

Can someone clarify this for us? I was under the impression MS was no longer good in a back-half car past 8.50??? 25.5 ms?

[GRIFFIN]

25.5 can use MS, 25.2 is moly only (and I heard that is being looked into on revisions)

[joesmithz28]

Thanks.

[excelerater]

I got re-cert yesterday,my cage went 8.50...its a mild steel 12 point,pretty basic and im looking to upgrade to run 7.50s @3200 lbs.

What am I looking at 25.5 or 25.2,the NHRA guy was talking all sorts of stuff,maybe even 25.4 ---------im confused:rolleyes: ?????

thx

[ProCar]

25.5, backhalf bridge from 8.50 to 7.50, either legal MS or CM allowed.

25.4, tube chassis bridge, 8.50 to 7.50, either legal MS or CM allowed.

25.1, Pro ET (7.49 and faster) less than 2800 lbs class minimum

25.2, Pro ET (7.49 and faster) less than 3200 lbs class minimum

Either 25.4 or 25.5 cars can be built specifically to that spec from scratch, but they aren't that far away from a 25.2 job in terms of effort or cost...Relative to the value it adds the car. That's why I referred to 25.4 and 5 as a 'bridge'. Even then, we only use 25.5 when the existing cage does not compromise much; driver location, protection around the feet, the dash bar is not in front of the dash (pet peeve), quality installation so it's worth adding onto at the cost involved. Any time the existing cage 'flunks' the value test, we recommend the customer start over, and at that point, go 25.2 to add the value to the car since the investment is starting to get higher.

It's important to remember, it is the tricks, double rails, carbon fiber, bells and whistles that makes the typical 'Pro' built Pro ET car expensive. The base cage isn't all that expensive to do- it's the fact cars built to go 7.0 also have expensive engines, transmissions, etc.. so the owner starts grabbing stuff off the option list to suit their taste- they often have the capital to do so .

[Saleen91]

I've started looking into a 25.5 "kit" that Wolfe Racecraft offers. It's all CM, comes with through the floor sub frames (which I don't need since I already have sub frame connectors), window net, all jig notched and marked so it's basically hold and weld for about $2800. I'm guessing it'll cost me $1k-$3k to install depending on where I go and the skill of the person tig'ing it.

There's a shop close to me that is installing one of Wolfe's Sportsman kits. 12 point, through the floor subs, CM, all jig notched/hold and weld and it's very impressive. There's no gaps in any of the pipes where they mate up prior to welding, and the fit is great. I wouldn't have considered one of Wolfe's kit until I saw it in person.

[ProCar]

Just a quick thought, and the Wolfe stuff is nice- no issue with that- a 25.2 'cage', not a completely revised car with all the stuff that comes with it, can be done for 6k or so. (Off the cuff number). I don't know the cost of the kit, but I see the labor estimate, and it's not out of the ballpark between the two. The subframe connectors, if used (welded) into the structure to pass 25.5, relegate the cage illegal for 25.1 or 25.2... This is where I was coming from about cost/value being a relative thing sometimes. I sound like a c*ck blocker, sorry 'bout that, but I hate seeing the same car show up to our shop twice because the owner saved a buck upfront but lost many when they went faster than they ever thought.

Either way, you're certainly doing your homework, you'll make a good choice!

[Saleen91]

WHOA... lemme see if I follow you right. If I weld my main hoop and kicker bars to my subframe connectors, that is illegal for 25.2???

[ProCar]

Assuming the material is MS, yep. I have to triple check the spec when I get back on Monday, but there may be an allowance for 2x2 minimum CM in the framerail area. I was at the 25.2 meetings, and Andy Robinson from England kept making the point they use a lot of square stock in Europe. Anyway, things can be tricky that way, that's why I was pushing the point. No sense is spending cash on a Moly kit and incorporate MS rendering it illegal for an advanced ET spec.

[MAYHEW]

Assuming the material is MS, yep. I have to triple check the spec when I get back on Monday, but there may be an allowance for 2x2 minimum CM in the framerail area. I was at the 25.2 meetings, and Andy Robinson from England kept making the point they use a lot of square stock in Europe. Anyway, things can be tricky that way, that's why I was pushing the point. No sense is spending cash on a Moly kit and incorporate MS rendering it illegal for an advanced ET spec.
I feel the same way its hard to get people to understand what the chassis guy understands.