View Full Version : Lets Talk Piston Rings
I'm the Product Development Manager for Perfect Circle Performance and OE rep rings. I always like to see what people run for piston rings and why they feel there set up works best. If your willing to share your combination to the public (some wont) and explain why you like to run it, I would like to hear from you. Also if there is something you feel may work better I would like to hear this as well, always looking to improve the ring line!
Later..
RPM
RPM:
Does Dana have any plans in place to enter the racing/performance market with their Micro-Napier second rings? Also, can you tell me what bore diameters & thicknesses are currently available for these? Thanks.
Chris Uratchko
06-20-2005, 08:11 AM
I'd like to see some good discussion on this topic. I will share my experiences. I've used the trick of the week coated top rings, diamond finish ultra high tolerance top rings, gapless top rings, napier second rings. Done a lot of stupid things with oil rings.
I've come to this conclusion, and being a ring engineer you'll probably balk at this statement, but I'm in the position right now that compression ring seal is way over-rated. I'm sure that will make some folks choke on that one, but some experiences as of late leave me to that conclusion. Not talking oil control, just compression. We see all this trick of the week, month, year technology for top rings in terms of coatings, gap types, finishes, tolerances etc and I'm only speaking from a drag racing perspective, but I just don't see the proof in the pudding.
I realize some of these ideas are relative to ring life and durability, and I'm not discounting that area.
Let me give an example. I was using a gapless top ring in a drag race deal, and we had some tune up issues that hurt a couple rings pretty bad. It actually made the ring curl inwards, in other words pulled away from the wall, for about 120 degrees of circumference. 2 dead holes. Only found this on a health check. Had good oil control so we didn't detect it in the plugs. I repaired it and expected some performance improvements and we might have gained .05 in ET... no real mph... maybe 1/2 mph. Had the leakdown numbers on those 2 holes indicated valve seal issues, we would have seen a larger discrepency in my opinion.
So some might ask, 'So what'?? Well, my point is that sportsman racers in the drag racing community need to be cautious in throwing money at big dollar rings. It's not hard today to spend 6-7 hundys on a ring pack for a bag of tricks claiming horsepower.
If we want to talk durability for a nitrous or power adder combination, or for an endurance engine then I can see the extra money spent for alternative coatings, materials and other areas of ring design.
Now don't go thinking I take ring design lightly, I'm using a worst case example to show my thoughts on the sensitivity of the issue. My case in point has high crankcase vacuum, which tends to help cover up ring issues.
These are just my opinions. I'd like to hear some others.
I also have some napier experiences I'd like to share but I'll wait for further discussion.
Rob,
We have them in the line we call them a .043" mini hook from 4.000" to 4.190" bore.
I have a set in my engine at the moment and they seem to be working great! I am running a 1.0MM top, .043" mini hook and a 3.0MM std oil. I'm a bit skeptical to how the 1.0MM will hold up to the bottle but someone had to test them.... 8)
Chris Uratchko
06-20-2005, 10:26 AM
Are you saying you haven't used the bottle yet with the mini-hooks?
I'd like to see how they hold up to some detonation.
underdog
06-20-2005, 10:27 AM
The only ring RPM should be investigating is an engagement ring for Autumn :shock:
Chris,
I have had the mini hook in past engines and it works well the 1.0MM Steel top ring is new to my combination. I have some answers for you questions I just need to take am moment and think of a political way to word it since many of these places purchase millions in rings from us each year!
UndyDog....... I have to see if Dales works first! :-D
underdog
06-20-2005, 11:24 AM
If it doesn't, then you could get a 1/2 price sale!! :shock:
Chris Uratchko
06-20-2005, 11:29 AM
I'm too impatient to wait so I might as well get on with the napier ring I wanted to talk about.
My experience so far is that it is sensitive to hard detonation. The last time I used it upon teardown the ring was separated at the thinest part of the section....behind the hook. The only thing I can attribute this to is detonation.
Do you have any thoughts on that?
Chris:
Are you completely certain the J-hook didn't grab a little when it was installed? Yeah-yeah-yeah, I'm sure your installer ring is in good order and your delecate hands didn't ram the piston in carelessly (LOL!!!). Only suggesting this as a possibility because delicate rings & near-zero bore chamfers can certainly fatigue or fracture that area of the ring during initial installation.
Also, completely agree with you about the tricks of the week. It's all about leak over time so the smooth finish & no-gap stuff probably will never pay itself back to a sportsman-level racer. No question there are durability gains for eztreme endurance applications though.
Chris,
Its very uncommon to have the hook break from detonation. I would guess that it broke on instalation. We have had these rings out for 6 seasons now and the first 2 were NASCAR only they have held up realy well. I have broke a few putting them in my own engines with a band style ring compresor. I have since went to a bore specific sleeve and eliminated the snag issue. I will also say the bore specific sleeve will wear and eventualy hang up so its a good idea to replace them no and then.
If you still feel the ring broke due to detonation, what did the top ring look like and how well did the piston hold up. Hard to tell without seeing the parts.
Regards,
RPM
Chris....
To answer your first post on the trick of the week rings I would assume you are speaking to the many variations of the gapless rings available. Here at PC we do not feel a gapless ring is any better than a gap style ring. A gapless second promotes top ring flutter, top ring flutter breaks the compression seal evey time the ring bounces and also speeds the process of groove poundout. If your going to use a gapless I would suggest always running a gapless top ring. 80% of your oil control is done by the second ring so asking that ring to stop oil and seal compression is asking for trouble. Most all of the record setting NHRA, IHRA, NASCAR, WOO and the list goes on run a gap style ring.
Another trick of the week many tend to get caught up in is ring coatings to resist micro welding (Not Face Coatings). We have gone down this road trying many diff types of PVD coatings and many I cant talk about. Fact is they were masking problems in teams race engines so when they found and corrected the problem micro welding was reduced to a minimum.
Diamond ground or PSG rings..... I see you have been through the whole total seal book.... :lol: This works...... We have these rings as well that we make specificaly for NASCAR and the do make more power. Here is the catch, the teams we sell these rings to make there own pistons.... Having a perfectly flat ring will not do anything if the top ring groove is not perfect. With that said it will be hard to find a piston available to us at the moment where this ring will show a gain on the dyno..... I guess my point here is would these help and engine with a power adder, not realy, would I spend the money to run them in a power adder engine.... NO......
Napier or the THG ring is not a trick of the week..... This ring has been around for years in many OE applications. We ran a 1.5MM in the cup cars for a few seasons seen how well it worked and decided to put the ring in our performance line. The napier ring will provide better oil control than any other second ring available due to the sharp hook on the outer edge that acts likes a squeege on the downward stroke and pulls a nice oil film for the skirt to ride on durring the upward stroke. Due to the added oil control many have been able to reduce the oil ring tension to free up some friction and this will ultimatly lead to more power. Now the question is do the other second rings work, yes.... Do they work as well as the napier, NO..... We have stoped a lot of oil consuption in OE engines with the napier style rings..... Proof they work well and last!
I hope I helped some.... Do we as a drag racing community need the high end trick of the week? NO we dont.... Can we gain performance by running some of the better ring combinations out there.... Yes we can, but it comes with a price and how much do you want to pay to go fast.
Chris Uratchko
06-20-2005, 04:05 PM
Chris:
Are you completely certain the J-hook didn't grab a little when it was installed? Yeah-yeah-yeah, I'm sure your installer ring is in good order and your delecate hands didn't ram the piston in carelessly (LOL!!!). Only suggesting this as a possibility because delicate rings & near-zero bore chamfers can certainly fatigue or fracture that area of the ring during initial installation.
Also, completely agree with you about the tricks of the week. It's all about leak over time so the smooth finish & no-gap stuff probably will never pay itself back to a sportsman-level racer. No question there are durability gains for eztreme endurance applications though.
I have snagged them on installation :-D Problem being you won't know until you pull it out to check, and then you won't know again once you put it back in LOL!!
I just eliminated the ring all together. Problem solved! :-D
I may try them again down the road, but not for the 25+ dollar a piece price tag that Total Seal has on them. They think because their colored gold that they might actually be made of gold.
How much are you getting for a .043 mini-hook with a reduced radial section? Pro Series type?
Mousehouse
06-20-2005, 05:29 PM
Great information. Keep it coming guys.
Monty Mikho
06-20-2005, 06:15 PM
I've come to this conclusion, and being a ring engineer you'll probably balk at this statement, but I'm in the position right now that compression ring seal is way over-rated
Damn I couldn't agree more!!!
Monty you go with the flow, if we told you to wrap duct tape around the piston you would! :-D
Monty Mikho
06-21-2005, 05:25 PM
I dont go with the flow!! I used to gap my rings at exactly .034" on top and exactly .036 on the second.. I put some old rings in a motor that was honed a bunch of times and the ring gap went to .063" to .070" and I seen absolutly no difference in ET!!!
Is that the ring issue you called me on a while back? How did your gap grow so large? If the steel wore it that bad I would have chit myself..... Cant beat the PC479 rings!
Monty Mikho
06-21-2005, 06:20 PM
No the TS G2000 rings just flat out sucked for my combo.. them where the rings we talked about on the phone. When I dropped a rod at Stanton a couple years ago I used some really old hellfire rings that were made for a 4.155 bore.. I believe the bore was around 4.165 when I used them.. The gap was around .065".. Im sure ya have a formula to show exatcly how big the bore was at that time.. What is a PC479 ring??
Also what seems to work best on turbo motors? First and second rings.. Im looking at 1/16 - 1/16 rings...
k-star
06-22-2005, 10:29 AM
More ring discussion.....
I agree with the others, I have really found no big gains in the "ring of the week bag"
A few years back i was building limited late 358 for a local team. They ran on alcohol. They were 10.7 to 11.0 compression depending what you did with the valve pockets/head gaskets. The cylinder head guy wanted to run a set of total seals in one engine . When i built the short block i did a test by installing the rings and pulling the piston in the bore with a scale. I then switched to a set of E251K's and did the same pull test. There was 5 pounds greater pull with the total seals. We ran them any way.... when that engine came back to freshen, the cylinders were totally contaminated with oil. This same engine was clean before the total seals, and after switching back it was clean again.......It made zero difference in how the car raced....
How many other builders put the rings into the bore and see how well they contact the cylinder wall around the outside??? Has any one found one brand of ring to be better then the other for circularity?????
I can remember years back when i first started building engines i used to build some grenade engines,,,,because no one had any money!!!! You all know what i mean.. .009/.010 piston to wall, swap meet trw forged pistons, cast cranks etc,,,,, You know those engines were hone by hand with no plates, used the low tech moly rings.... And they never smoked any more then the good engines....And raced the same..
Keith
More ring discussion.....
I agree with the others, I have really found no big gains in the "ring of the week bag"
A few years back i was building limited late 358 for a local team. They ran on alcohol. They were 10.7 to 11.0 compression depending what you did with the valve pockets/head gaskets. The cylinder head guy wanted to run a set of total seals in one engine . When i built the short block i did a test by installing the rings and pulling the piston in the bore with a scale. I then switched to a set of E251K's and did the same pull test. There was 5 pounds greater pull with the total seals. We ran them any way.... when that engine came back to freshen, the cylinders were totally contaminated with oil. This same engine was clean before the total seals, and after switching back it was clean again.......It made zero difference in how the car raced....
How many other builders put the rings into the bore and see how well they contact the cylinder wall around the outside??? Has any one found one brand of ring to be better then the other for circularity?????
I can remember years back when i first started building engines i used to build some grenade engines,,,,because no one had any money!!!! You all know what i mean.. .009/.010 piston to wall, swap meet trw forged pistons, cast cranks etc,,,,, You know those engines were hone by hand with no plates, used the low tech moly rings.... And they never smoked any more then the good engines....And raced the same..
Keith
Funny how cars will go down or around the track without any problems when things are less than ideal. This ties into the statement "We race cars, not dyno's".
Perfectly sealed engines will (without any question) produce more power for a longer period of time, but how it translates to vehicle performance is usually dissapointing unless you run long races on good surfaces or if you drag race with a car that's hooked up solid to the track.
Late models are a great example of this. Our local 1/2 mile asphalt track is bad-fast. Our late models weigh 2700 lbs. with hardly any limits on the engine other than it has to be max 358 CID. On any given weekend the feature winner will be a toss up between a small block Ford with McLaren Pro King heads (serious piece), or an old used-up Dodge CTS 9 to 1.
Vehicle dynamics and other attributes are allways overshadowed by that noisey thing under the hood. Can't complain because it's good for business but it'd be interesting to see what would happen if the racers paid a TON more attention to dynamics/handling, parastitic losses, driving, and aero.
Mousehouse
06-23-2005, 03:01 PM
Should I use a .043, .043, 3mm or .043, 1/16, 3/16 ring pack. What ring company should I use?
My engine is a 372c.i. 18 degree n/a motor for drag racing with around 15 to 1 compression.
Mousehouse.....
I would run an .043" Plasma Moly, .043"RBT, 3.0MM Oil ring stack in your engine without hesitation. Or another option would be 1.2MM Plasma Moly Steel, 1.5MMTHG, 3.0MM Oil. The 1.2, 1.5, 3.0 ring stack is lighter than the .043, .043, 3.0 and has better oil control with a more durable top ring. Brands I would not use as a first choice..... Hastings and Mahle...... Most all others buy our rings and put the components in there box. If you give me your bore dia. and location I can give you some part numbers and a retailer that has Perfect Circle Performance brand....... 8)
Good suggestion RPM.
I've used that top ring with a 1.2mm second and 3mm oil on restricted inlet endurance engines where excessive/wet fuel (allways the case with 2bbl & restrictor plate under it) normally cause severe bore wear & ring groove wear.
First try with the plasma moly steel improved bore wear & ring groove life by at least 200% over ductile iron.
Mousehouse
06-24-2005, 11:01 AM
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
4.125" bore
We sell a lot of the 1.2MM, 1.5MM, 3.0MM sets to the dirt sprint car (WOO)and dirt late model guys.... These rings are cliped from wire with the moly channel drawn into it so the plasma moly sticks much better than the ductile in return it will take more abuse. Since its a wire the side faces are very smooth and dont show grinding marks like a ductile will. High dollar ring performance for a much cheaper price......
Perfect Circle numbers 315-0065.005 = 4.125+5 1.2, 1.5, 3.0 Low Tension
315-0014.005 = 4.125+5 .043", .043", 3.0 Ultra Low Tension. These sets were very popular when Pro Stock Truck was around. I would suggest ordering them from Doug Herbert Performance, They handle our whole perofomance line and display about the cheapest price around.
Regards,
RPM.......
K-Star,
I have no idea why the total seal rings would have pumped oil but I can tell you that the ZEBCO drag test is always an interesting find. I cringe every time I get a call and they tell me my rings dont show the listed tension on the fish scale drag test. :smt017 Its hard for me to explain that our tension gauge measures them in a different way than the $12 fish scale. I can tell you this.... Drag from set to set or ring brand can vary due to radial wall diff in the compression rings and expander and rail combinations in the oil rings. For example Hastings uses a big fat expander on the oil ring and in the same application we use a much thinner rail to conform to the cylinder wall. Both rings are same tension but on a drag test the hastings ring will pull harder through the bore because it wont conform to the wall as well.
I will also say piston rings are perfectly round they are barrel lapped in a cylinder at gauge diameter for light tight. Thats all OEM and performance so if you have spots where the ring is not making contact you have a bore issue not a ring issue.
HardcoreB
06-26-2005, 10:20 AM
RPM, I would like to solicit .043-1/16-3/16LT ring packs in the 4.39"-4.40" bore sizes. This covers the NOW POPULAR low-deck Chrysler "B" block in .05"/.06" oversizes. On a side note: I dunno if any builders are trying this but tightening the ring groove down on the ring, vertically via custom piston, is supposed to help with flutter.
On a side note: I dunno if any builders are trying this but tightening the ring groove down on the ring, vertically via custom piston, is supposed to help with flutter.
All the OEM's have implemented this practice (been this way for several years now-part throttle = ring flutter) and this has also carried over into racing.
Monty Mikho
06-26-2005, 11:51 PM
I have run them at .002" clearence with no aluminum transfer on the rings under a nitrous load. Anything tighter would transfer material and pinch the ring.. Just my experience on my junk... :wink:
I wanted to bring this back to the top and ask a question....
Have any of you racers gone to the .8MM, .7MM, or the .6MM top rings to try and gain some performance. These would most likely appear on a N/A combination. My current project has me going into the zone of feeler gauge size rings and was curious to see if any of you have played with these rings. I know they are available from total seal with may coating combinations.
Chris Uratchko
07-27-2005, 11:27 AM
What material?
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