Brodix Track 1 heads

[Camaro_Dave]

hey i've been looking on here for a while and finally decided to post up some questions.
i'm building a 408 sbc and bought a set of brodix track 1's before doing a ton of homework on em (got a deal from a friend) are these things going to hold me back from running good numbers? i haven't heard or seen too many fast cars running these :?

specs...
408
JE 13.5:1
6" rods
solid roller cam .680in .660 ex
hv1002 intake with 1050 dominator
planning on ~200 shot of juice with a plate

they haven't been touched yet and i was also wondering what i could get these to flow? and what do they compare to?

[Mousehouse]

I was told not to waste anymore money on a 23 degree head by a very reliable source.

You might get them to flow in the 300-320 range. But is it going to be worth the money and effort you have to put into them to get them there? Will they be enough for what you are doing. Maybe and maybe not.

Chris can tell you what he has told me (my first sentence) in the last several weeks. It depends on where you want to go from here. Is this going to be your last upgrade for this motor? If not, you might consider a different set of heads if your budget allows.

[Camaro_Dave]

well i would love to get some 18* heads or something better but i have the short block already together for 23*. i've already bought 3 other sets of pistons for this engine so i'm tired of changing.i also have jesel shaft rockers that i wouldn't be able to use. i wanted to go AFR 215 rr head but the rocker issue. and i already have the intake for a standard 23* head.
i'm pretty poor, i'm 19 years old, and help my mom with her payments and stuff so ya i'm on a tight budget :)

so whats the best bang for buck on heads then that i could still use? i'm sure i could get rid of my heads and intake no problem but don't wanna go and get offset rockers when i have spent the money on these ones.

i'm not too familiar with pro topline or is it pro action heads?? but i hear they make some killer 23* stuff cast or aluminum...

thanks

[Mousehouse]

I was in the same boat a few months ago. I had everything to finish a 23 degree motor and decided to sell all of it and build a 18 degree one instead.

I would keep what you have. Try and find a good head porter that knows what he is talking about and see what he thinks he can get out of your heads.

Try BES Racing and see what they say. They aren't cheap but they know what they are doing.

Monty and Chris should be replying to this post shortly. See what they have to say.

I can tell you from experience. Build what you have and make upgrades later. It will save you a ton of money.

[OutlawNova]

I would just build what you have and be happy with it. You buy 18* heads, you will have wished you bought 14* etc. I dont know how fast you really want to go, but I know of a nova that runs 6.50's in the 1/8th all motor with basically the same setup you described. I have another buddy that has a 383 with track 1's, sprays it with a 225 shot and runs 5.70's on 26x8.5 tires and the car weighs over 3200lbs. Any questions you can email me at outlawnova@verizon.net

[Camaro_Dave]

my goals for the car which is a backhalved 74 camaro 10 point molly cage 31-18.5-50 tire all steel except hood th400... is to run a 10.99 all motor and a 9.99 with 200 shot@ 4000 feet. the only thing i see holding me back from doing that is my heads. (sorry don't know jack about 1/8 mile times)

this will be my "third" engine... haven't run the past two cause i was going to build a 15:1 355 then changed to a 14:1 stroker then finally decided on this 408. got about half way done on each then sold it :x so i kinda just want to get the dang thing done and run it. i also don't want to be disappointed with the numbers i run though. the only two things i have to change to do what i want is the heads and a bigger cam thats more nitrous friendly. i could stick with it how it is and switch out later but i don't have the money to be buying that much stuff. and while its still not together might as well get the stuff now.

where is BES located? chapman racing is only a hour away from where i live so i was thinking of taking them there. they are pricey though.
sorry this is so long but this is what i think. i pay 600 for the heads bare and spend a grand working them...1600 dollars for a bare set of heads that might flow 310. or buy a pair of bad ass 23* heads for 1600 bare that flow 330ish...thats what bugs me. i don't wanna spend that much for a shitty head :evil:

[RAM Racing Heads]

I have seen those heads go 10.40s on motor in a 3000 lb. backhalved Camaro. If that is your goal at this point, the Track 1s will do the trick.

Rich

[OutlawNova]

The track 1's will run the times you are wanting.

[Camaro_Dave]

well running 10's at 4200 feet (da always over 7000 though) is a lot harder then at 1000 feet. i need as much air as i can get.

if i was at sea level my goal would be somewhere around 10.3 ish all motor would like faster but realisticly i'd be happy with a 10.3 na at sea level.

[Chris Uratchko]

Dave your goals are really not a problem. A max effort Track 1 head can be a 9 second n/a combo.

Just be carefull you don't get sucked into spending too much money on the heads. It's easy for money to start rolling when you have a goal in mind and the next thing you know when you look back is that you have as much into a marginal cylinder head, as you would into a great cylinder head. Parts is parts, and it all costs the same.... the part numbers don't discriminate to the dollar amount, generally, for all intent.

I think you should establish limits for those heads right from the start. That means, in terms of development, ONE trip to the cylinder head porter, and that's it. Don't make a development program out of the heads sending them all over the place chasing flow numbers for dollars, or even the same guy more than once. Call them good whatever they are doing after the first port job.

If and When you decide to put Titanium valves, and Jesel Rockers on the heads, just my opinion but I would not do this. For new parts that's a 2500 dollar bill, into a bottom dollar set of heads that are a limit to your combination.

So that's what I'm refering to in terms of limits.


As for those heads and their capability. They are your typical high end Low Port small block chevy head. Taking into consideration Material thickness, that head will do the same thing as most other high end low port heads in terms of hp capability. It's 50 year old technology and it's all been done before with that head.... no real milestones to be had. So don't let any cylinder head guys enamore you with big numbers, tall tales, and great promises. They are what they are.

If you're on a tight budget I would look real hard at finding a good used set rather than pouring money into a new set. That's my .02.

Have you considered AFR heads? AFR has great prices on CNC ported heads... fully assembled and they do make some decent power.

Chris

[Camaro_Dave]

Yes i have considered the AFR 227's and the 215rr but like I said earlier I already have jesel rockers and the rr's need offset.
Are the 227's even that much better of a head then what i've got?
also i found those pro topline heads i mentioned earlier, the 242cc std. 23* heads looks pretty good and looks like i could still use all the other stuff that i've got already. it probably wouldn't take long for me to sell my other heads and save more and purchase these ones, or is there something better i haven't found or know about?
yes my goals are to run a 10 na but that was with the track 1's. but why not try to go faster and set higher goals :-D i eventually want to build a small block that will run 8's in my car but that'll be a few years. so if i could get mid-low 10's(7000+ elevation) and mid-high 9's on spray i would have a lot to look forward to.

thanks for your help guys!

[Chris Uratchko]

Well that's kind of what I'm talking about. With the jesel setup and porting, the total output of money will be comparable to what you'd have in an 18 degree high port setup.... and you'd be way ahead. But the decision making needs to start at the beginning.

Your goals are obtainable, but you'll be working the motor harder for said goals.

[Camaro_Dave]

alrighty.

so what do you think about the pro topline heads i mentioned?

[Mousehouse]

Dave don't waste your money on another set of 23 degree heads. Either use what you have or sell it to buy a set of 18 degree heads. I would stick with what you have just because you mentioned you were on a tight budget. They should do what you want to accomplish. Just don't throw a lot of money into them. Like someone stated earlier. Have them ported once and live with the results.

I am switching from 23 to 18 degree stuff and just about everything you have will have to be replaced to work with the 18 degree heads. Pistons, manifold, headers, rocker arms, lifters, etc. The headers and rocker system are probably you two most expensive pieces. If you can find a used set of headers they will be around $400-$500.

Live with what you have and start saving your money. Trust me if you start changing things you probably won't stop. If you don't have deep pockets that isn't a good idea. I don't and I still decided to change things. The only thing that is saving me is I received good deals on most of the parts I had to sell so I am not getting hurt to bad.

[Camaro_Dave]

alright i'll probably just stick with this set up for this year and next.

so if i'm going to build something different later why build 18* motor? why not something extreme? just like outlaw said...

oh btw what is the BEST 23* head out there? not like i would go buy em i just wanna know

thanks

[Mousehouse]

Dart little chiefs are suppose to be the baddest small block head. There is another post on here about the baddest head out there.

But if you are wanting to go on the extreme end go with a set of 12 or 14 degree heads. They should be coming down in price in a year or so.

[Zeke1]

The badest 23's I've seen are the AP 10X from weldtech there about 350cfm and there AP 18 degree flow about 395 cfm, I've personaly seen both flow a little more, there not cheap but there worth every penny and if you want a little more how about SB2's that flow 420+ if you have any question's give Denise a call @ 1-519-737-7308

[Chris Uratchko]

We need to be carefull that we don't get too caught up in flow numbers. The port geometry, valve position, and chamber shape/size are much more important than a flowbench number.

For instance. A Pro Action 14 degree head has a claimed flow number of 420 cfm, while the Dart Little Chief has slightly less, and from what I've seen even a similar curve... guess which one has WAY more horsepower potential, and guess which one has never made good horsepower in anything even though it has huge flow numbers??

[Mousehouse]

I have found out that flow numbers change between benches and they are just a tool like anything else. A lot of the changes are caused by air conditions and a few other factors. Any change to the head can affect flow numbers. I am starting to learn more about cylinder heads but am still a novice.

[ROB]

If you're trying for 10.30's at sea level, stay with what you've got. A fluffed-up set of Track 1's on a 406 will easily produce enough power to do this.

You mentioned a solid roller cam, but not the durations or rocker arm ratios. This doesn't have to be a high-tech science experiment to achieve your goals (lots of off the shelf profiles will work), but it would be favorable to know what these are so it can be assured that you will hit your marks.

You've already made an investment for rockers, intake, etc. so you're not hurting yourself by spending the money to get the heads cnc ported. M2 will do this for around $1500.00 to your heads and when they're through you will easily make enough power to push that car into the 9's.

Also, consider alcohol fuel if you're allowed. Especially if your cam timing is already in line for this (exhaust duration is critical-big is not good). You will make around 10% more torque on alcohol and it should help your altitude situation.

*********DISCLAIMER***********

It is assumed that you will have the compression ratio above 13 to 1, your block will be machined by a competent source who understands the importance of proper surface finish and roundness in cylinder bores. Tuning must be done correctly, and the trans/converter combination has to be on. No cheap converters. ALL OF THESE MUST BE IN ORDER.

[Camaro_Dave]

i have thought about running methonal or just a 50/50 mix but i'm no tuning expert so i don't want the headache of that kind of fuel.


the comp is 13.5:1
jesel rockers 1.6in 1.5 ex
splayed mains half filled block
th400 tranny 5000 stall
4.56 gears 31" tall tire

these are the two cams i have to choose from...
both crower solid rollers

duration @.050 269*in 281*ex
lift .621in .615ex w/ 1.5 rr (so intake will be .662)
107* lobe seperation


duration @ .050 270*in 278*ex
lift .638in .663ex (intake .680 w/ 1.6 rr)
114* lobe seperation


these are what i have. i can change but not too much bigger cause of the springs and all that, that i already have.

i am planning on running about a 200-250 shot through this and i think the second cam is what i would be wanting to use with it.

i'm a little confused on lobe seperations. if you have a low stall speed a narrow lsa is good so you can ramp up faster and have a little more power down low right? and a wider lsa is better once your alrady going and good for nitrous right? so the cam with the 107* lsa would be dumb if i wanted to spray and i have a 5000 stall right?
thanks for your help guys

[Camaro_Dave]

oh one more thing... is a head for a 350 bore going to be different then a 400 block bore?

cause if it is i might have a problem. i bought these heads when i was building my 355 a while ago and just changed to this 408 a couple months ago, and i've been reading about 4.00 bore heads and 4.125 bore heads so i might be screwed :oops:

[ROB]

You don't have to be a tuning expert with methanol. The tuning window is much wider than with gasoline. By the way, the two don't mix so 50/50 isn't a possibility.

The wider LSA cam will work best if you do the nitrous. It won't hit a tight converter as hard but you'd be OK with the 3-spd.

No problem with the heads on a 4.125" bore. Especially if they end up at the porting shop.

[Camaro_Dave]

so its easier to tune methonal??? if thats the case i would think about running it. its a ton cheaper, makes more power, and smells better :-D

so what about nitrous and methonal? is that gonna be a bitch?
thanks

[ROB]

If you get your carburetor set up by a competent carb shop you won't have any trouble keeping the engine in tune with methanol. The car can be rich or lean (more rich than lean) of ideal & still be consistant.

Nitrous isn't a problem. Components do exist that are supposedly compatible with methanol, but the quick easy is to do a small cell dedicated to nitrous & run gas for supplimental fuel. SpeedTech is a very good source for nitrous systems.

[Camaro_Dave]

so what you saying is get another cell (2 gal?) with its own own pump and stuff but run gas instead for the nitrous?

i know a lot of forced induction people use methonal injection at WOT when running hi boost. what if i just ran 114 all the time and when i sprayed use methonal instead of gas? do you know if that would work and make any noticable differences?

also i was planning on running just a plate kit but would it be better to just get a fogger if i did run it with methonal?

oh and back to main topic. i'm going to stick with the heads i have and just build someything better in a year or two. this will be my first "fast" engine so i'll learn a lot from this and build something wild when more money flows.

[ROB]

You'd be much farther ahead to use methanol as the primary fuel. Don't become confused by blower people injecting methanol under boost. The main purpose for that is to cool the inlet charge, which you'll be doing with nitrous.

For a beginner I'd recommed the fogger. Plates are prone to have distribution issues so instead of seeking out the trick plate of the week you'd have less trouble with a fogger.

Yes, I was saying to use a dedicated cell, pump, etc. for nitrous. 1 gal. is plenty. If you spray for about 4-5 seconds through the run you'd probably have no trouble racing almost all weekend on that single gallon.

I'm recommending methanol as a primary fuel because it's an oxygen-bearing agent, so you'd have better luck with running quick at high altitude with it.

[Camaro_Dave]

ok i see what your saying. so what would you run as a fuel (octane wise) for when i spray?

[Chris Uratchko]

Just to restate what Rob is saying, make sure you get a competent carb/fuel system guy who can give you his experience for the whole fuel system. I've seen guys change over to methanol and love it with a great experience, and I've seen guys pour money into the methanol change over, regret every minute of it, and return to gasoline never looking back.

Far as I'm concerned we should all be using methanol. It's more forgiving, Cleaner burning fuel for the environment, cheaper than racing fuel, and we aren't supporting terrorists by using it.

I can probably get you an alcohol dominator carb done by Pro Systems pretty cheap with all the bells and wistles. I can check and see if my buddy still has it. But it's up to you. You'd be well off with just a 4150.

[Zeke1]

Your right Chris the flow number's don't tell the whole story but to give you some insight the heads where designed for the ASA series in the late 90's as you know they ran 18 degree and at the time was a very competitive series and anyone that knew or thought they knew what they where doing built engines for this series the heads that I am talking about not only beat anything at the flow bench but made almost 100 horse more than anything out there this is not speculation they won the most races and championship the last two year's they ran the v6's, they have great swirl low intake runner volume and increadible mid range, if they can do that for a v6 what do you think they would do for a v8, I can tell you anyone that has run them can't beleive the difference , buy the way I heard you are having trouble with the GM 18's and have run out of spares on your last set , going soft between the middle exhaust are you using old heads or new GM's if so how long are you getting out of them, I'm having the same problem but not sure if it's from being old or welding or just a really bad tune up

[Camaro_Dave]

heck ya if you could find a good alky carb let me know. i talked to my engine builder and i asked him if i should try it out. he said why not. so i might as well.

an aeromotive A2000 fuel pump would support that right? and for a nitrous pump i wouldn't need anything bigger then like a holley blue?

[Chris Uratchko]

No I haven't had any issues with any 18 degree heads.

We have had some issues with a 23 degree head engine but it's a tune up issue, not a mechanical issue. The engine is on the ragged edge and when the wind changes direction the timing and jetting need to be addressed. Just stupid stuff.

You say you're having problems wtih an 18 degree head? Are you putting water between the center exhaust?

Chris

[Zeke1]

I was talkin to JC and he said you where haveing problems with the center deck from heat, my heads are drilled and plumbed for the center water but didn't think I needed them I was wrong they will be used next time, I see some head manufacturer's will not repair gm heads is there a reason for this? and some reheat treat is this nessesary ? if so what is involved to reheat treat and where could I get it done?

[Chris Uratchko]

You could re-heat treat the heads which would be a very costly, labor consuming event. You're talking all new seat, guide work, all new machining of the surfaces.... yeah the head would be hard again but at a price.

The other method I've seen is peening the welded area after you build it up.

Who's JC?

[Zeke1]

I was afraid all that had to be done cheaper to get new heads, live and learn
JC is Johnny C. Sr lives close to you help's you out a little I believe :wink:

[Chris Uratchko]

Johnny Cook? He and my dad go way back. I haven't seen him in probably 10 years. If you see him tell him I said hello!

Chris

[ROB]

Repair shops generally don't want to repair GM heads that were cast at the Winters Foundary, but not too sure about those cast at the Edwards Foundry (18°, Splayed, etc.) Edwards also produced heads for Ford & some others and they were much higher quality than the old Winters parts.

Winters castings (049, 101 & others) were very poor and hard to weld. In the time when these were current, many of the shops would remove seats, bore the seat pockets deeper & larger dia. then send the heads to Peterson Welding to have "good" material welded in so the seat registers could be machined into a more durable substrate.

Pushing water into the center of the heads doesn't work as well as pulling it out.

Assuming a pump with reasonable output capacity, water system should be plumbed so the water pump pushes 100% of it's output into the center of the block (most aftermarket & Bowtie blocks have a boss for this). Front water pump holes should be blocked off entirely.

End outlets on heads should have restrictor orifices of around .4375" each. All of these can be plumbed into a common block for the outlet hose.

-4 AN hoses from the outboard center of the head should be plumbed into the SUCTION side of the water pump. Fitting in head should extend inward enough to position it's input near the gap between the center exhaust ports and low to the top side of the deck surface.

[Zeke1]

wouldn't forcing cool water into the center of the head be better than sucking out hot water ? if you get the head hot enuff to cause a vapor pocket water will not flow but if you force cold water in under pressure that will not happen yes no ?
what I have see on old cup stuff is a hole drilled parrallel to the deck about .200 down with a second hole drilled and taped for a fitting with a tube that angles down and intersect's the other hole , so the water forced into the tube connects with the hole parrallel to the deck and back to the main water jacket so cool water is alway's running through the center of the head

[Chris Uratchko]

They do route the cup stuff like Rob described. If you look at a cup block they are pumping water to the center, with a pretty big line, about mid way between the 2 freeze plugs.... there's a boss there specifically for it in a bowtie block. It promotes even distribution of the cool water. The pull water from the front and rear of the head. Taking into consideration the stock water pump setup, it's got a long way to go before it cools the rear cylinders. Mainly this stuff is endurance related, but if you were having a serious problem would help any engine.

I have had positive results pumping water into the head only like you mentioned. On a limited drag racing engine though that only sees 9 seconds of useage.

[ROB]

Guys,

I'm saying you pull water from the ends of the heads on the intake side and from the center of the heads on the exhaust side. This setup yielded approx. 40° surface temp. reduction on the bridge (deck) between the two siamesed exhaust ports vs. pushing water into that area.


The older setup was done with intersecting passages, one drilled on an angle. That was before someone ponied up the funding to do a real CFD study and find out that most of what they were doing wasn't ideal.

[Zeke1]

Okay I stand corrected, thank's for the help I see a plumping nightmare in my future

[Camaro_Dave]

so back to the topic :-D

would the AFR 227 be that much of a better head? i can get a set from someone for a decent price and i have someone else looking into buying my track 1's. i'm trying to stay 23* on this motor just cause short block is all together and i have everything else to go with it.

[ROB]

You'd have to get your pistons reworked because the AFR has 60/40 valve spacing. I think you'd be further ahead to send your Track 1's to M2 for CNC porting. At the end of the day I'm pretty sure you'd have equivalent performance without the hassles of re-machining pistons.

[Camaro_Dave]

oh serious. alright thanks

[Camaro_Dave]

ok so i don't think i'm going to waste my money on a 23* head. getting a set of 18* hopefully from a guy. so maybe i'll make higher goals :)

[Mousehouse]

If you have your short block together I would stick with your 23 degree stuff. Your pistons, some of your valve train, manifold and headers will probably have to be replaced when and if you switch to 18 degree stuff.

[Camaro_Dave]

my builder will buy me out on my pistons (trade for 18*)
selling my rods and going aluminum, has nothing to do with the heads but doing it anyway.
the heads come with everything including rockers. they also come with a matching intake :)

only thing i'm worried about now is headers. but i wanted to get bigger ones anyway.
am i going to have to get different lifters? i have a guy interested in those but i need to know if i can use them before i get rid of em.

[Mousehouse]

It depends on which 18 degree head you go with. Most likely the lifters will be offset at least on the intake side.

Maybe your engine builder would buy my new pistons in trade for a set of 18 degree ones.

[Camaro_Dave]

they are bow ties if that matters

[Mousehouse]

I believe the lifters are offset .150 on the intake side. Chris and a few others should know for sure. I know the set of 18 degree heads I have use a .180 offset on the intake.

[Camaro_Dave]

ya i picked them up today. going to need some headers and some lifters. also picked up a cam motion cam


man 9's are looking like they won't be too far away(hopefully)

[Chris Uratchko]

What's the cam specs? Weight of the car, gearing, tire size etc etc...

I'm hoping you're telling me 290 on the exhaust lobe.

[Mousehouse]

Post the cam specs. I am curious how my cam matches yours?

[Jay Allen]

Post the cam specs. I am curious how my cam matches yours?
Ya go ahead and put your cam specs up there.

That'll make for some good reading!

[Beyond]

Grabbing some popcorn...

[Camaro_Dave]

ok sorry i lied. i thought those were the specs.

here they are

.753 .691 w/1.6 rr
dur. @.050 281*in 292* ex
113 lsa

weight of car is undetermined. it'll change by the time i get this engine in there. i'm guessing right now with iron heads it weighs 3300 lbs. the gears will most likely be changed as well with this in it. right now it has a 4.56. and a 31" tall tire (31-18.5-15)

[Camaro_Dave]

i got the cam in trade for my crower. its new but the dude still has the card in his garage.

fixed the confusion on my cam... got it right this time

[Mousehouse]

Ya go ahead and put your cam specs up there.

That'll make for some good reading!

I'm not posting mine. They are staying on the piece of paper I have from you.

[Chris Uratchko]

Post the cam specs. I am curious how my cam matches yours?
Ya go ahead and put your cam specs up there.

That'll make for some good reading!

LOL...